Mass Timber Construction Podcast

Mass Timber Construction Podcast Special Guest - Jeff Spiritos - A Developers Perspective on Mass Timber

September 29, 2022 Paul Kremer Season 2 Episode 124
Mass Timber Construction Podcast
Mass Timber Construction Podcast Special Guest - Jeff Spiritos - A Developers Perspective on Mass Timber
Mass Timber Construction Podcast Global Shoutout +
Support us, to support the planet!
Starting at $3/month
Support
Show Notes Transcript

In this special guest episode, I speak with New York City Developer Jeff Spiritos, of Spiritos Properties. Spiritos Properties  is committed to building tall wood buildings, mass timber buildings and promoting the adoption of mass timber buildings in the design, construction and real estate industry. Our goal is to share what we have learned since our team was selected as one of the two winners of the US Tall Wood Building Competition in 2015. The project, 475 West 18th Street, in New York City, gave us the opportunity to meet with the leading industry participants from Europe and North America, to learn mass timber building systems and technology, research and engineering. We keep current on innovation through these relationships and deep involvement throughout much of the World.

Jeff and I speak about the global push into the adoption of mass timber, how passivhaus in concert with mass timber can support lower operational carbon, and the compelling argument that a developer makes about the costs associated with adopting a timber or timber-hybrid approach to construction. We have a few laughs, and indeed talk about the amazing work the https://www.ctbuh.org/ is doing to support mass timber development. Enjoy this amazing episode, I am very humbled to have Jeff on the podcast. 

Contact Jeff +1 917.453.2288

jeff@spiritosproperties.com

276 Riverside Drive, NYC, 10025

Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com

Sponsors of the Podcast:

Rothoblaas
Rothoblaas is an Italian multinational with its roots in the Alpine region; a leading developer and provider of high technology solutions for all those involved in the construction with wood sector. Always engaged in finding solutions for the improvement of the sector, today Rothoblaas is one of the leading companies worldwide in the development of products and services dedicated to the wood carpentry industry, and continues to export know-how from the heart of the Italian Alps to the world.

International Association for Mass Timber Construction (IAMTC)
The International Association for Mass Timber Construction aims to promote and deliver value to its members and associated stakeholders through an all-encompassing approach to advocacy, thought-leadership, development for the architecture, engineering, construction, manufacturing sectors, provide education, training/teaching and research in establishing a global mass timber construction sector across the five contents of the world.


IAMTC
Delivering value through an all-encompassing approach to advocacy and thought-leadership.

Sponsor Wanted Here
Looking for global sponsorship opportunities in the mass timber sector? Why not consider sponsoring?

Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.

Support the show

Good morning, good afternoon, or good evening.

wherever on the world today.

This is Paul Kremer with another special guest edition of the Mass Timber Construction podcast, coming to you from Melbourne, Australia, and also into the US in New York.

And I'm not sure how to introduce this guest because either his daughter is really famous and he is the father of the daughter, or he is really famous and his daughter is the daughter of the father who is our next guest.

But Jeff, please tell everybody who you are and what you're doing right now.

- Well, thank you very much, Paul.

It's great to be here with you.

To answer that first question, it's definitely that I am the father of a very famous daughter.

And I'm just happy to be an observer on her journey.

She's really the one who got me into Mass Timber back in 2012 when we started to, We'll listen to Michael Green at a conference and it's taken off from there.

- And we're of course referring to your wonderful daughter, Erica, who I believe is still on the West Coast, while you're on the East Coast.

Was that by design, by you or by her do you think.

- It's totally by her.

I mean, she's a naturalist.

She's always been into the outdoors ecology and New York City, too many tall buildings, not enough sun, not enough green.

She's very happy in Portland.

Well, I think though, New York tried to become more greener with the High Line and I think when I visited there last, would have been all seven years ago, it was a beautiful place.

It was summer and you could walk the High Line and it was amazing.

So I do this DC that there's some gentrification of the green nature within the city, but potentially not enough for Eric.

And potentially adequately enough for you, right.

Yes.

Well, after spending close to 40 years developing a New York City, you know, you get used to it after a while.

Too many concrete and too many steel buildings.

And that's the reason to make this switch over to Mass Timber back in really, I think we started in earnest in 2014 when we were fortunate enough to be one of the two winners of the tall wood building competition that the USDA and the Software Lumber Board put together and it was announced in 2015.

In fact, we were going to build a 10-story kind of minimum on the high line right at the entry, but New York City wasn't quite ready for that yet.

- Well, since I visited there seven years ago and since time has progressed and, you know, building codes have changed and there's an interest in, well, there's two interests in mass timber, right.

There's the purest building aspect, which you're probably likely referring to, but State University of New York is actually doing some work on bolstering the existing buildings to create thermal mass on the outside by applying mass timber elements to it to almost support it from an installation perspective to, I guess, bring it up to code or bring it up to some sort of standard for environmental conditions for people living inside those buildings.

And so there's this whole complex of things happening in New York.

What are you specifically involved in right now other than getting rejected for a building at the end of the halloween.

- Well, so what ended up happening is that we, we have undertaken two Nass Timber buildings in New Haven, Connecticut.

And I've moved up there since February of this year, because one of them is a, an overbuild of a existing three-story building two stories of mass timber.

And the other one is a 69 unit affordable housing, round up four story project.

Both of those are not only mass timber, they're built to passive house standards.

Both are under construction.

And those are, you know, I'm happily in Skonston, Connecticut for the next year and a half or so working on those projects.

Brilliant.

And for those that don't understand what Overbuild is, it could otherwise be called vertical extensions.

And there's a project at the moment with CTBUH, which I'm championing, which is about how do we build multiple vertical extensions with connecting sky bridges to bring communities above existing cities.

And it's really good to hear you talking about the approach, because not only are you using a material that's sustainable, and not only are you using an approach for construction, which is going to have benefits as well, but you're also contributing to this issue of sprawl, right.

And so densification might be some way to address that.

And it opens up the opportunity that, and you're a developer to air rights above the buildings, you know, what can we do with this space that would otherwise not be utilized.

And you know, I think that's an amazing almost a triple win or quadruple win across the bottom line for people.

Yes, Paul, and you know this quite well.

So if you can preserve and restore and grow a mass timber building out the top of them, you're extending useful life.

As you said, densifying the urban center, which is where most people are going to be living, as we know, and you're really taking advantage of timber's benefits being as light as it is, its prefabrication, all the benefits that go with that and in the natural, healthy environment.

So it's got all these attributes to that approach.

- To that end, I guess it pushes us to the next sort of point or topic that I'd love to just side shift into.

And that is your role with the CTBUH.

So we've talked about urban sprawl densification.

We've talked about restorative practices to buildings and extending on these buildings to grow a mastium but building at the top, That's a beautiful way of describing it.

Trees grow, why not grow mass timber buildings at the top of buildings.

I like that.

But on the CTBUH, you've been working with a team and I'm very pleased to say I've been an advocate, a support and an advisory contributor to the Hybrid Steel and Timber Committee.

And we're really trying to work out how can these materials exist in the same space And to preface the next segue for you to have a chat, the arrival of timber back as a construction material sitting alongside concrete and steel has firmly happened in places like Australia and Australia to really get a grasp in the US.

And now we really do have this combination of using the right material for the right purpose in the right location and aspect.

What else do you think the project's gonna be able to do to provide that accessibility to people around the world, to think of timber up there with concrete and steel.

- Well, I'm glad you mentioned CTBUH, and I'm not sure everybody knows that organization.

So it's the Council for Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat.

Been around for 50 years based out of Chicago, an international real estate organization with thousands of members that is focused on bettering the tall building and urban habitat environment throughout the world.

They're the only really world-based real estate organization with any kind of reach, as you know.

And fortunately, Anthony Wood, who is now the president, made with the support of the Softwood Lumber Board, and now with Construct Steel, and that Steel Hybrid project, really is studying how to, as you say, bringing more taller, best timber buildings into cities, the future of the world, and help Steel and Concrete on their way towards reducing their embodied carbon, a la what mass timber can do so that the built environment gets rid of its 11% you know, detriment of to climate change.

And a superstructure comprises 46% of the embodied carbon of a building If steel and concrete can move towards using cleaner sources of energy, emitting less carbon, and be more like timber, the world's going to be a better place, a healthier place.

So I am fortunate enough to be the chair of both the Tall Woodbuilding Committee and the Steel Timber Hybrid Committee.

I started with CTBUH on their 12th Timber Committee in 2015 and really stayed engaged since then and am delighted and honored to be in this position working with people like you and leaders in this movement throughout the world who are really technically very able to lead us forward in this movement.

Thank you.

I'm always the one that's a bit quiet in those meetings because when they happen, it's usually midnight or 1am.

So I'm really pleased as the chair, you don't go, "Hey, Paul, what have you got to say on this because I might provide you this half-slurred answer at such an hour in the morning.

And then the other thing I get to say is that there are some superstars on these committees that we're involved in and your capacity as the chair to allow disparate areas coming together because Steve and Timber are more so probably concrete and Timber has had this quite public debate, but to bring people together based on commonalities rather than differences is a significant skill that you have and I just think that that's the utility of these programs and the way it's become so effective.

And of course, Anthony's been on this podcast before, and it was great to see him move into the position he currently is as well.

Just for everyone who's interested, there is a conference coming up in November next month in Chicago.

Unfortunately, Jeff, I'll have to send my apologies.

My piggy bank to be able to get and their fairs somewhat run out.

However, not for a lack of want to not be there, but certainly I think the conference is amazing.

And of course, the big event that's just happened recently, and Daniel was on site in Milwaukee to put an accolade onto a little known building called Ascent.

And so I think you and the committee and the team that are looking at tall buildings and you're looking at Master Timber to get this accolade for Tim Gokman and his building was an amazing feat.

- Absolutely.

Tim and his father Boris are really superstars in their willingness to attempt and succeed so beautifully with this project.

And they're well-established developers, as you know, in Milwaukee, But to still take on building the tallest, the most timber building in the world is an incredible accomplishment, hats off to those guys.

And that's a very successful project.

And it's great that CTBUH has really put the effort into developing the benchmarking for wood buildings, tall wood hybrid buildings, in 2017 established, you know, those guidelines.

And as more and more timber buildings and hybrid buildings get built, they will all be listed in the CTBUH timber, you know, records for sure.

- I think it's a great acknowledgement for people that pioneer and move into this space.

And I think the tall of the building is a great moniker.

I think people just adopting a different approach with Mass Timber is equally as knowledgeable.

And I think that how we progress now with the hybrid buildings, and of course, Sydney is home to the under construction Atlassian building, which will be the tallest hybrid building.

So, Jeff, you're gonna have to get on a plane, and you're gonna have to come out here and tell Anthony and Daniel or anyone else that you've got will or whoever else is gonna try and get on that charter with you.

that you're gonna have to do it and I'll meet you in Sydney and we'll go to the rocks and we'll have a few drinks before we have a meal and then you can open the building the next day.

- That is such an incredible project.

I've been following it for a couple of years and I'm so happy that it is now under construction that the Atlassian had the wherewithal to make it happen.

I'm sure you of course know that the architecture is by shop of New York and I think BVN of the Netherlands and shop was the architect of our 10 story building in New York that didn't get permitted but that begat their mass timber journey and they are such an innovative architect.

that tower is going to be spectacular.

I'm going to join you for that drink, for that cocktail.

Upon the opening, I'm looking forward to that, Paul.

- Yeah, as shop have bailed me up, representatives at the conference in Oregon in April this year and said, "Thank you so much for the shout-outs on the program.

" So another shout-out to them, BVN, a fantastic job.

They did an expose of the project in about June, this year in Melbourne.

So I was very privileged to introduce the speakers for that particular project.

And you know, it's going swimmingly right now.

And of course, the impetus behind all of this is Mike Cannon Brooks, who's one of the director founders of Atlassian.

He now sits on the board of one of our largest energy companies here in Australia, and has just recently put in as a substantial shareholder, a directive to go green for that energy company.

So it really is starting to take shape that people are listening to different ways of approaching the challenge of potentially understanding climate change and what it means in translation to our urban habitats.

And Atlassian is one of those projects that just has come together so nicely.

And I'm really pleased that SHOP's second prize was not your Highline project, but the Atlassian project.

Well, they were going to get there one way or the other, that's for sure.

There was a determined bunch.

But you raise a really terrific point.

We have to build more sustainably.

We have to get rid of all this carbon.

We have to make our forests healthier and our environment cleaner.

25 million acres of deforestation every year around the world.

We have to be working with the countries all over the world to reverse that trend, give reason to those that want to deform us to try to change their habits, to figure out how to make sustainable harvesting something that is well understood.

It doesn't take carbon out of the, you know, doesn't stop trees from absorbing carbon because you plant more trees as you harvest them.

You create the wear with all for rural communities to be able to grow.

You create jobs and you create the ability for forest owners to have the financial wear with all to prevent infestation in forest fires.

And because of the prevalence of forest all over the world, this is a critical, a critical thing that needs to happen in order to make the world a healthier place, right.

100%.

And to add to that, I was recently at a symposium of students who who are at the University of Melbourne, where I'm associated in an academic industry capacity.

And the students were from the business and economics domain working in the infrastructure engineering space, looking at this exact problem.

And the question was asked, what was the estimate of mass timber as a function of the amount of concrete that's produced.

And the capacity we estimate is about 1.

6% of the total global concrete production per year is attributed to mass timber.

Now, if you take that mathematics forward and you say, well, 1.

6% is a very small portion of that, but then you take this retraction of forestry that's able to supply materials into growing that 1.

6 into 3.

2 and then to 6.

4 and growing exponentially, you know, we really do have to change something.

And I think that the advocacy that you're showing here in the podcast and how that then translates through your own practice as a developer and then through the CTBUH and recognizing people's commitment to taller buildings or growing a mass timber building at the top is a beautiful coalescence of all of these ideas.

And I think, you know, it would be good to ensure other people listen to this podcast and also share in the same thinking that you have and see how that transforms.

And to that point, can I ask you a question.

Now, I know your daughter's very famous.

Thank you, Erica, for allowing your dad to come on the podcast.

What was the thing that transformed you from being a traditional developer into the mass timber.

- Well, growing up as Erica's father and seeing her care for nature and the environment, as a developer, I spent 25 years with Hines, who's a large international developer who always cared about the product they built and the relationships with the tenants.

And I was always community minded in the projects that we developed when I went off on my own about 20 years ago.

And it's, you know, the chance to, first of all, at now 68 years old, a chance to learn a new technology.

I'm a civil engineer.

I studied timber engineering in school, but I had a chance to be a part of a new technology and try to help its spurred adoption and enjoy being able to build these buildings.

It's for a guy who's getting close to the end of his career, a tremendous opportunity.

So the idea of Erica getting the seeds planted and growing and being able to do something that's so fulfilling is, I'm so fortunate to be doing this.

- That's awesome.

It's a really lovely tale and it's one that really does also touch into the next point.

And that is, you know, Mass Tim is about a community effort, right.

We're talking about a whole industry that supports forestry.

And we're doing that in an appropriate way, which may be certified in many instances.

And where it's not, we hope that they're getting certification.

It can prevent deforestation.

As you said, the lungs of the earth can then start to heal and foster some positive benefits to the earth in general.

And then we've got this being able to use a material that's so versatile and grow a mass timber, building out the top of an existing building.

I still love that.

I think it's brilliant.

And now we've got hybrid forms of construction.

You know, where are we going, Jeff.

What spots, you know, if you had to say to somebody, listen, you know, Paul, you're gonna take over my business.

And for the next 20 years, this is the direction I think you should head.

What would that direction be.

- Well, so you and I and the home-ass tender industry are at the very beginning of this journey.

Unfortunately, the degradation of the world's atmosphere is taking us here and is making it so critical.

Unfortunately, more and more people are waking up to that all over the world, whether it's certainly Europe, certainly Australia.

The fact that you and I are talking so far apart, but Australia is so progressive in these mass timber buildings, it just showed it's a worldwide phenomenon.

It's starting to happen in Africa and South America and also certainly in Asia.

So this is every continent, every country is able to join in with this.

And as we build cities, they can definitely be made of mass timber buildings.

I'll say your viewers may or may not know, but 90% of the multi-story residential buildings in the U.S. are 12 stories or less.

84% of the multi-story commercial buildings that's hotels and office are 12 stories or less.

We think of the big cities and the ultra tall buildings, but those buildings of that size are right in a sweet spot for mass timber.

And the same goes for all the way around the world.

So we don't have to be limited by the stick frame timber buildings that are prevalent in America.

Mass timber gives us the structural capacity to build taller.

I see a day where most of the buildings are going to simply be built out of mass timber.

And the ones that are taller that need a steel and a concrete core and lateral system.

Those structural systems, hopefully more environmentally progressive, will be able to stand right alongside the timber.

I think that's a really salient point and that is we do, you know, give homage, I guess, to the city being this tall building with a specific shape that's an easily identifiable icon because as you drive towards the city there's something there that indicates this is X location.

You know, it might be a specific tower with a revolving restaurant on it.

It might be a specific tower that has a really tall antenna and has sort of cascading elements on the rooftop to provide this unique design and lit up on 4th of July events with red, white and blue.

It could be any of these things, but really what you're talking about, the essence of the city, the things that support the occupancy of the inhabitants and the people that frequent are around that 12 stories and less, which means it's perfectly accessible for Mass Timber as a purist or semi-purist or hybrid type of building to be developed.

That's an incredible statistic.

Yes, and so you've been really getting the word out about all the benefits of building with Mass Timber and I think it's really making a big impact, you know, your podcasts and in your outreach and just more and more people need to really understand the multiple, or hopefully we'll start to understand the multiple attributes of building with timber.

That's the beautiful thing.

It's not just fulfilling one or two or three, let's just say construction or technology or occupancy objectives.

It's really the answer to so many ills of the construction industry, one major one being the lack of productivity.

And as you well know, the prefabrication and the ability to build with follow-on trades immediately after the timber structure goes up, so much different than concrete and steel, which are multiple slower because of all the other steps that need to be taken.

So it's just, you know, if folks will dive in and really invest time to learning what mass timber development construction is all about, you know, we'll just grow this industry that much faster.

I agree.

And if I may ask, your code adoption is happening quite rapidly too.

You know, what significant role do the codes play in getting that acceleration.

Well, it's monumental because what it would developers say, they say, how much does it cost and are the codes going to approve it.

And because the IBC adopted in 2021, the codes up to 18 stories, and now in the 2024 iteration, really, you're going to be able to expose more timber, and it's just the progression is moving forward, you can go into any city.

I'm going to just say except for New York City, and I'll get into that.

I'm glad to get into that.

But you can go into most cities, in big cities, whether it's Chicago, it's Philadelphia, it's Boston, for example, it's certainly the West Coast cities, it's certainly Milwaukee.

But go into those cities and say, I want to build a, you know, a 2021 IBC approved tall timber building, and the road map's they're right in front of you.

And I'll just say for New York City, I hope they will open their eyes to embodied carbon.

They've got some vestigial behavior that an old city that's actually a world leader in so many ways that limits their vision when it comes to, you know, being a part of this lower embodied carbon solution.

They're doing well on the operational carbon side, they're a real leader in that, but they really are behind the curve when it comes to being a leader in mass timber buildings.

And I hope the powers that be there can, can maybe listening to your podcast, in somehow realize that they have an opportunity that they can't pass up.

- Well, maybe there's two ways to start to change that.

First is you can send them the link to the podcast.

Second one is we can go and do like a field trip.

We can go on, I'm happy if they wanna support us to go over there and you know, you go out of Connecticut, I'll come out of Melbourne, we'll go over there and we'll just have a chat for a couple of hours and see what happens.

I mean, that could be a quiet way to go.

And if it's around sort of the end of June, start of July, and it happens on a boat somewhere, and there just happens to be a festival that's happening around it, that might be perfect as well.

- You've got a great idea there, Paul.

Let's see if we can make that work.

- It's a fantastic location, New York.

And look, there's a lot of people doing a lot of good work in New York state, New York City will likely come on board in terms of its progressiveness.

once there's a rationale and a reason to do so.

And I think it's just a matter of time for most cities.

And of course, there's been a lot of work done on encouraging councils and governments and local governments to adopt a timber first policy.

It doesn't mean you have to build in timber all the time, but it's you look at that as a first option for many, many reasons.

And of course, you know, code changes are significant.

You know, we look at what's happening in the UK at the moment, specifically in London, without codes being present, and you have a significant and substantial and very tragic disaster like Grenfell, it can completely change the landscape.

In Australia, we've got codes and they're developing all the time.

The EU has got codes, the UK isn't struggling with that.

South America's got to do something moving forward.

And I think in totality, if we keep talking, we keep continuing the conversation.

We are going to change minds because there's something in this.

It's a global phenomenon.

- Yes, and I certainly have the right approach to that.

To just be open, keep talking, share knowledge, the belief that the folks you're speaking to are going to listen and consider and eventually get there.

That's certainly a positive way to approach it.

with you.

I want to thank you for all your leadership on the CTBUH.

A big shout out to Anthony Wood and the team, Will and Dan, who I mainly deal with, mainly because we're dealing with a project at the moment.

To everyone that's on the committees, there's two big committees over there, and we're currently finishing up a project on vertical extensions or growing mass timber to buildings at the top of existing buildings connected with sky bridges.

It's a It's a really lovely way to bring it all together.

Your two developments where you are right now, tell us a little bit about those.

Are they mixed use.

Are they hotels.

Are they accommodation.

- Yes, they're both apartment buildings.

The first one is small.

It's a 150 year old building, unreinforced masonry, few stories of masternbur on top, no new foundations, a CLT stair and elevator core up through the roof top amenity space.

The stairs will be CLT as well.

This is a, and I believe in the Andrew Waugh approach to building timber buildings may be picked up a notch a little bit.

We'll explain that.

Like Dalston Lane or Stadhouse, these are CLT honeycomb buildings.

There's no glue-lam in them.

CLT walls, CLT floors.

The exterior wall is CLT because that is the best way to achieve passive house because there's fewer thermal bridges, fewer joints to have to deal with.

You leave the inside of the exterior walls exposed, one face of the interior walls exposed, the ceiling, of course, exposed.

So that's one project.

That's the five-story Acme Timberloss building.

The other one is really the first state housing fund, low-income housing tax credit, deeply affordable project in the country called 340 plus Dixwell.

It's 69 units.

Again, slab on grade, four stories, CLT, honeycomb, Every apartment in this building, and this is for people making 25 or 30% of average median income up to market rate, everybody living together under one roof has at least one wall of every room exposed, the exterior wall exposed and the ceiling exposed.

And then you've got the benefits of passive house, which is natural ventilation all the time, a very tight enclosure, reduced heating and cooling costs up to 80% lower than cold buildings.

This is really the future of affordable housing or attainable housing or workforce housing, hopefully in America and around the world, we're trying to show that model.

And then our third project, which is in going into CDs now 55 plus adults living 70 units in North Hampton, Massachusetts.

Four stories again that same CLT exterior wall, CLT floors, in this case a glue lamp frame, bigger apartments for people downsizing from their homes, but wanting to be in a community setting in a college town with a robust progressive city that really can spend their latter years in a very healthy way, you know, in a very healthy building.

And Jeff, may I ask, who did they model the 55+ living on.

Was there a guinea pig that they tested to see whether this might be appropriate for a person that's 55+.

No, so as guys like me are getting towards the end of our baby boomer years, really, there are so many millions of baby boomers that are entering this phase that don't really have enough retirement money to continue to live in the single-family, two-car environment that they live And so this is really a growing typology in the US.

I'm not familiar with all the way around the world, but baby boomers are everywhere.

But it's our partner, the folks from a group called Live Give Play really have come up with this concept and we have teamed up with them to bring the Mass Timber Passive House component to it.

And it's really, it's gotten a lot of local press recently and it seems to be an approach that may catch on.

- I think it will.

And I think you have hit the nail on the head.

There is an aging population on many parts of the world.

Australia is one of them.

We have a sort of an hourglass that's almost inverted to some degree in terms of the baby boomers coming through.

And I think it's a universal problem.

I think when we have issues where markets crash and we have low interest rates, which are obviously now on the rise, but they haven't been at a moderate level where there's a return for people's investments in the banks in a general capacity sense.

Unless you're dabbling in the stock market yourself and playing the game of investments, they're going to struggle for retirement.

I think the solution of having community-based 55-plus living, the way that you've described it and commendable by the organisation that's actually looking to do something different because there's a lot of health benefits that go with CLT as well.

And you mentioned Passive House.

We did the first student accommodation building in Melbourne, Australia, using Passive House in CLT building.

And I'm really pleased to see that extending to your projects.

But more importantly, it's not at a university, which is a very insulated developer.

You're actually doing it for industry and consumer open market capacity.

And for that to be the first in the US is very commendable.

Thank you.

We have joined hands with you and our community in really reducing embodied carbon.

And we're doing that with also reducing operational carbon through this proven engineering technology of Passive House that it's really, you know, as you said, it's really active throughout the world.

So we do have a roadmap for how to get there.

For those that may be wondering, the incremental costs of both building Passive House and Mass Timber are nominal, almost negligible.

You get all those come along benefits when you build with mass timber and you get a reduced size of your HVAC system to go along with maybe the increased cost of creating that super airtight shell.

But really, don't be afraid if you're listening to this and you're thinking about, Well, it's just out of my price range.

Don't be afraid to try it because there's really a very small premium, if at all, to be paid to build a better building.

And Jeff travels around the world listeners and he is going to be in Sydney at some point in the near future when the Atlassian building opens up.

So if you want to bail him up and ask him, what are your developer secrets to be able to produce these buildings and get some insights.

Definitely hit Jeff up when you do see him.

He does frequent conferences as well.

I know that for sure.

And also, you know, he's accessible through the CTBUH.

How else can people get in contact with you.

If there's someone listening to this going, you know what, you are the perfect person for us to get guidance and support and do a development.

How do they get in touch with you.

So thank you for that.

It's so we're at Spiritosteproperties.com.

The phone number, email address are there.

It's critical to us really to share our knowledge and help others.

Whatever your participation in this industry, be able to get connected to the resources that are out there and we'll be completely open book with anybody who's interested in learning how we go about things.

That is really generous, Jeff.

You know, if someone had told me 10 years ago, I'll be open book and let them have a look at the actual solution and how it plays out.

I probably would have fell over because when I did research back in 2012, 2013, no one was willing to do that.

So you are extremely generous.

A, not only with the information that you share, your commitment and time and just the service that you provide to the CTBUH and the wider community.

It's not too infrequently that you and I bump heads, I guess, to some degree without being combative.

It's more about the time slot, which each one of us will get at a conference presentation or something like that.

So it's Very, very much.

I'm very humbled and very privileged for someone of your experience and caliber to be sharing a stage with at times.

And I hope that continues for many years to come and certainly into.

It doesn't sound like you're retiring, Jeff, but when you do, I hope you still continue to be on the Talking Circuit.

Well, Paul, back at you with all of that.

It's a real treat to get to know you over these past couple of years.

I feel like it only gets closer every time we connect with each other.

You're doing a wonderful service for the industry and I'm really happy for you.

Delighted to be a part of this and I hope you continue to keep it up and grow in your your breath and reach.

Thank you so much, Jeff.

The podcast will be live very, very shortly for anyone listening.

Don't forget to subscribe.

Jeff Spiritos, thank you so much for your time today and have a great evening for you and I'll have a great lunchtime for me.

So thank you so much and I'll look forward to catching up with you at the Atlassian opening in Sydney.

Thank you, Paul.