Special Guest - Jared "Magnum" Revay - Unlocking the Potential of Mass Timber Manufacturing

Are you ready to unravel the mysteries of mass timber construction? Join us as we sit down with our special guest, Jared Magnum Revay from Swinerton Timber Lab, who has 25 years of experience in the construction industry. In this eye-opening conversation, we navigate the complex communication pathways essential to make mass timber construction a success, from human interaction and language barriers to digital coding. Jared also shares his inspiring story of his migration to Taiwan and reveals his unique middle name.

Dive deeper into the world of mass timber construction by exploring Timber Lab's collaborative approach to industry growth. We discuss the exciting potential of this sustainable building material and emphasize the importance of cooperation over competition as we bring together manufacturers, fabricators, builders, engineers, and designers. Discover the challenges of scaling up the market share, the opening of Timber Lab's facility in the Southeast, and the bold vision for their expansion into the Pacific Northwest.

Finally, we examine the technological innovations and sustainable practices that are propelling mass timber forward. Get the inside scoop on CNC machines and their crucial role in the construction process, as well as how Timber Lab is pushing the boundaries of what these machines can do. We also delve into the environmental impact of construction and the importance of constructing sustainable lumber supply chains for mass timber projects. Don't miss out on this enlightening conversation with Jared Magnum Revay as we explore the future of mass timber construction!

Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com

Transcript

Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. This is the moment you all have been waiting for. It's time for the global sensation, the one, the only the undisputed heavyweight podcast in the world the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. And now here's Paul Kramer, your host. 

Speaker 2: Good morning, good afternoon or good evening. Wherever you are in the world today, Welcome to the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. This is Paul Kremer, back with another special guest episode, And repeat offenders is most likely the way I would call Swinerton / Timber Lab for being on the podcast, because they seem to always pop up, And that's no surprise, because they're always doing something innovative and new, And today we've had a cast of thousands from Swinerton Slash Timber Lab on the podcast before, but we've never had my next guest. So, Jared, can you please tell us your full name, who you are, where you came from and what you do at Swinerton and let the audience know a little bit about you? 

Speaker 3: Hi, Paul, thanks for inviting me to the show. To introduce myself, my full name is Jared "Magnum "Ravey. I grew up in Southern California and lived there until about the age of 27. Then I took a little bit of a migration to Taiwan where I lived for about nine years building manufacturing facilities for the semiconductor industry, And that's what I believe has teed me up for this opportunity working with Timber Lab in overseeing all of our fabrication manufacturing operations as we expand our footprint in the US. 

Speaker 2: And so your middle name. Where did that come from? It's very curious to have a middle name. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, we have a few Jerrods in the company, so that's usually my meeting name. Magnum That's what I call me, but my mom was a big fan of Magnum PI, so I think I'm pretty sure that's where that came from. Well, I was hoping She had a crush on Tom Selleck. 

Speaker 2: I was hopefully hinting that that might have been the case and it sounds like it probably was. So just a bit of trivia for everyone out there. If you do meet Jerrod coming up at another international conference or just in the street as you go by calling Magnum I think he probably prefers that, would that be correct? Yeah, and you did some work in Taiwan and you worked in the sort of manufacturing space for semiconductors. You know that grounding or background must have been a very different environment from a high pressure, high commodity production perspective. How does that differ from what you're doing now with Timberlap? 

Speaker 3: It was a very high pressure environment and had an opportunity to learn it from the ground up while I was out there And really seeing projects out there where we are scaling 1,000 to 1,500 workers to start building a manufacturing facility and doing that in multiple languages, was The ambition I had. To go out there always wanted to do a mega project in different languages, because what I see is the most challenging aspect of construction or anything we do. The only thing that really creates problems is communication. If we all had perfect communication, we probably wouldn't really have any problems. So that's really why we have our jobs is because we communicate and distill information and coordinate people and make things happen. 

Speaker 2: And I guess the communication is two ways right. There's what we call the end coding, which is sending and transmitting that message, and then you have a number of filters that get in the way, language being one of those filters or communication barriers or something that needs to be navigated. What's the language of manufacturing? I mean, is it now a digital language? Is it still a human interface language? Is it something that might be sign language? Is there some communication pathway that is specific to your experience or background that you think can help solve that communication issues? 

Speaker 3: I'd say it's a little bit of all of the above right now. In this landscape where we're looking at now, there's a complete human aspect of it where, this being a new industry, we have individuals coming into the facility that we're hiring with little to no experience with mass timber, but maybe experience wood or woodworking carpentry. So there's some relevancy. But having that interpersonal communication with our craft and allowing them to be their authentic selves here at the facility so that they can really flourish in what they do, and in turn, by allowing that you get good communication back from them, and that's really kind of the human aspect side of the facility. But it's a whole ecosystem, right. Timber Lab does sales, we do design, design assist and we do our detailing. And detailing is a really key component to our manufacturing And that's where the digital side comes in. And after it gets detailed per se, it then moves on to our CNC programmers who are then putting it into a code language. So there's multiple kinds of languages that this product needs to work through the value chain. And then once it gets to us, you know, before it gets in the CNC, it's a program, so it's a bunch of numerical code that's being processed on the machine And it's a human running that machine. So it's the combination of both that digital world and that human world that really brings that together And that's really kind of what makes us successful, because even once it leaves us, there's a certain kind of information that needs to leave the FAB facility out to the project teams that are actually installing this product. And that's Timber And backing up a little. 

Speaker 3: I've been in construction for 25 years and Master Timber may be the last four years and it's been a unique experience in that we're working smarter now. It's not designing a building and creating a picture and then writing Hundreds or thousands of RFIs to disseminate that design and try to figure out how it all comes together. It's actually taking that design on the front end and figuring it out with the right stakeholders to get everything down to a 16th and really designing things so that it's a manufacturing job, not a construction job. So it's now changing the mindset that we're a manufacturer creating these kits of art that are going to get packaged up and we're going to have like a little instruction booklet. It's like you're ordering a set of furniture from your store and you get some instructions, you get some hardware and you get some pieces of material that you got to put together And that's ultimately where we're trying to send a site now, because it's safer, it's cleaner, it's faster and requires less labor on site and it serves as a finish and it's a very sustainable product when you compare it to the other products in the industry. So it's kind of blown my mind at how smart it is. 

Speaker 3: And the opportunity I had prior to running our manufacturing is working on the airport project, the terminal core redevelopment project at Portland International Airport and that's a 400,000 square foot mass timber roof that we spent a lot of that front end time with the owner and the general contractor and the engineers and architects and some of the other trade partners and we figured out every square inch of that roof before we started And, man, when it started it just flew. That was the first time I've ever seen a building fly without having to stop to ask questions to change something, to cut something. No, it was purely an assembly project and there was a lot of complex curves and complex cuts and we really honed in at the beginning with our modeling and got some really amazing people to work with, put that together and that was my first big mass timber project. So prior to that I was kind of crossing my fingers and thinking, is this all going to come together and is this going to fit in place? And we're all a bit nervous for the months leading up to the big show. And then once I saw the first big 80 foot glu-lamp going place and then we did a few more and then we started putting the roof over it, that's when I started to kind of like calm down and felt like I was on a downhill run right. 

Speaker 3: All of our effort was on the front end of the project. That's where our blood, sweat and tears was And the assembly becomes a fun project. It's not a fight, and working on a fun project makes you more passionate about this industry and the people you work with And it really makes the job enjoyable, rather than being on the types of traditional projects that become a fight, because a lot of these details and connections and things don't get thought about until you're in the heat of the action of the construction, when there's a crew of people waiting for answers And you know you got to pay them, you got to keep them going and you got equipment and things like that. So it's been a kind of a paradigm shift for me to see this happen And I'm really excited about it because the industry as a whole, we're losing the craft that we used to have And so to maintain the demand of what the market's calling for, we got to get smarter and find ways to do things with less people because there's not as many individuals out there. That's not to say that we're not trying to grow this industry and these people, because now we're really actively involved all the way down the high school level of engaging with students about our industry and about the craft, because it is really a good career. 

Speaker 3: A journeyman carpenter can make really good money like over a hundred grand a year, and that's a really good job, especially if you didn't have to go to college for it. You can get paid as an apprentice to learn the trade, so it's kind of a win-win. If you're out there and you're not sure what you want to do, that this could be a potential path versus going to college, or it could be both, because we also have a rotation program that we're doing with even our CNC machinists, with mechanical engineers who got really interested with CNC's. They eventually want to grow in the industry as a project engineer or project manager, but sitting and learning with us at the fab shop on the ground floor. It allows us to bring individuals in that want to learn the business from the ground up and grow with us, which has been really a cool experience because everyone here at Timberlabs really excited about what we're doing and how we're impacting the landscape to bring a more sustainable product to the construction market. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot to unpack in that. And I think if we start at the top, the CAD-CAM relationship between the shop drawings and detailing down to that one-sixteenth that you mentioned you know, millimeter tolerances in the metric And the person that's running the machine, that relationship between the two typically it's two humans. I think we've been trying to create a genesis where it's one individual doing both sides. Some people have been successful at that, others have not been. I think that's a really critical aspect of the interface for communication. And then moving into your manufacturing experience and that facility that you've got now, plus running into the PDX project, i feel very privileged to have spoken to you about the PDX because the last time we had Chris and Sam on from your organization we were going to talk about that in an episode coming up, so I'm glad we got that in this episode. So thank you for bringing that up. 

Speaker 2: We also we've also launched a new website, which your organization was very generous to give us some images, and one of the images is actually the ribbed timber structure from the roof structure sitting in the background of our journal, our new academic journal website at wwwmastimbreconstructioncom. You can see it And I noticed people can't see you but behind you. You've got a massive image there of the structure behind you And it's an incredible and impressive site. So congratulations to everybody on the project and congratulations to you and the team. And, if we segue to, you know the industry and building capability. I think you know you've always been at the forefront of trying to and I think many people at the forefront are trying to develop and invest in the industry for the betterment of the industry. 

Speaker 2: And we're only 1.6% if you include glu, lamp and CLT globally, compared to wet or concrete. You know we're a very small niche player at this stage, but that 1% will become 10%, will become 20% and who knows where it goes after that in the future. And I think investing in our people, investing in the careers, is a really important aspect And in terms of investment, it's a beautiful segue. You are on the west coast of the US, so for people that don't know. You're basically in the east coast, the facility is in Portland, and so you're in Oregon and it's on the west coast of the US, but you've just secured a new site. Tell us a little bit about the new site, which is on the east coast. 

Speaker 3: We started to evaluate what it would look like to establish facility on the east coast, because there's a. We started to experience a growing demand for projects out there And we had a small engineering team in Greenville, south Carolina, and which is close to Clemson and is also a great up and coming city, and we decided that we wanted to invest in those people and invest in that region, one because of where it's at for that purpose, and then it also sits strategically between our sister company, swinerton, who has an office in North Carolina and Atlanta, so we're right in between those two offices to where we can serve as a hub for both of those offices and allow people to come to the facility and check it out, because what we've experienced in the Pacific Northwest is that we've got a lot of people interested in this And we're doing tours at our facility almost on a weekly basis just to share with people what we're doing. Because, like you mentioned, we're a very small percentage of the market. But when you look on building magazines and architecture magazines and LinkedIn and social media, the mass timber is starting to be all over the place And as this grows, we're going to need more players in the market, not just Timber Lab And I like to think of it today that we don't really have competitors out there. We're all cooperators right now and working together. So we like to work with all the manufacturers in the space, all the fabricators in the space, all the builders in the space, all the engineers, designers, anybody who has any interest or any impact of the space. 

Speaker 3: We want to work and collaborate with people to grow this industry so that it develops a good reputation that you know projects can meet schedules and they can meet clients' requirements And there's enough product flowing through the market to meet that demand. So it's really exciting to be in that position, you know, as a market, to be able to cooperate with people instead of fight with people. And you know, given that it's so small, it's going to be like that for a good while now And you know, years. It's not like it's going to be a light switch and just all of a sudden we've got five or 10% market share. But just thinking of how small our market share is now and how it's growing, that's really why we've opened that facility in the southeast And we have our first CNC up and running now. We're running the first project for University of Arkansas And that project will actually be finishing fabrication next month, in May, and then we'll be starting our second project actually there, a big bank, live Oak Bank, and you know the opportunity to be in the position that I was asked to take on as the manufacturing director that it was really a big opportunity And having the building experience combined with the EPC experience I had in Taiwan building larger manufacturing facilities those facilities were, all you know, millions of square feet So it made it a lot simpler to relate that to this and be able to digest it and to manage that from, you know, the West Coast, united States and be able to travel out there and develop a team there. And we've got a really awesome team in place out there And we've got a really awesome manufacturing team who takes the burden of rotating, on traveling out there to make sure that our manufacturing team can focus on manufacturing And our expansion team focuses on the capital expansion so that people can do what they're good at. 

Speaker 3: And that's really what we want to focus in, on what we're doing with the expansion, but also just in our operation. It's getting people in the right positions to be able to do what they're good at and what they enjoy And also how they can ultimately help the company grow and maintain doing good work, because that's what we want to do. And the next CNC machine is supposed to be coming this summer and it'll be online in August, september this year. So we'll have our second CNC machine coming in and we are. The technology we're using at this facility is a little more advanced than what we're using in Portland But it's pretty similar and a little more user friendly on the programming side so that we can try to get away from that two person ratio. And we're playing with that on our machines up in the Northwest, trying to move from a two person ratio to like a 1.5 person ratio And just toggle that back and forth between 1.5 and 2 to really optimize what they're doing and how they can add to the productivity of the facility. And that really just involves getting Both teams at both facilities involved with the process. So we've got our team at our Northwest facility communicating with our Southeast facility to coach them through all of the things that they've learned over the last couple of years here in the Northwest And that's really given our team a leg up out there to start out smoothly to be able to rock and roll from the start And they're really excited about it. Eric Marshall is our production manager out there and DeCoen Beasley is our assembly manager And they're the most professional people that I could have ever found through these positions And they really took it and ran with it And they're doing an amazing job with this facility and my hat's off to them And I look forward to our third machine even coming in Q1 next year to see what we can serve in the market out there. 

Speaker 3: And we're seeing projects from Maine down through Georgia and Texas. So there's a lot going on out there all the way up and down the coast and even inland the US. And now we're trying to like determine like hey, which facility is going to support the project in Colorado, because that's kind of right in the middle. So that's really going to come down to species, because our Southern Yellow Pine product is most likely going to be manufactured from manufacturers in the South And we will fabricate that at our Southern facility and then Pacific Northwest will be our dug for epicenter. So it's kind of cool that we get to get divided by species and be able to learn about these different species as we start to endeavor on this mission And the experience of that has been really, i'd say, kind of life-changing. 

Speaker 3: I never thought I'd have the opportunity to head up the expansion of a facility, but that's really what I had as a role model when I lived in Taiwan. 

Speaker 3: I had a really awesome ownership team on some of the projects I worked with there And the guys that were in the position I am now that were in charge of expanding these facilities were the type of people I looked up to on how they organized it all and how they brought the team together to work in a collaborative effort and to really sess out the details and understand what we're doing and understand what we're building and how it's supposed to operate, so that everybody is clear on what we're doing And how it's gonna operate. 

Speaker 3: And really, when you pull the pieces together like that, see that human factor come in play and amazing things start to open up And things that I never imagined start to happen between people. And that's really one of the pleasures of this position It's seeing people grow and seeing our teams and our facilities grow And them doing it in such a positive teamworking behavior. It's really fun to work in that environment. It's been I've been in some tough work environments and this is it's exciting to come to work. I get adrenaline every day at work. 

Speaker 2: Awesome. Thanks for sharing that, Jared. That is an impressive summary of, I guess, the facility opening up. One of the questions everybody asks is and we're two men talking on a podcast, It's just us And one of the questions we normally ask is what car do you drive? So what CNC equipment did you actually choose, Jared? 

Speaker 3: For our Southeast facility. We are using SCM machines out of Italy. Scm has been a great partner. We've done several, a couple of FATs now with them in Italy and they send a team out to our facility to install it, commission it, train our teams And then they have a support team in Atlanta, which is perfect, because any big manufacturing operation with big machines you need support and you need to ensure that you're going to be able to keep that machine running at all times, with spare parts, long lead parts and what parts they have on the shelf. 

Speaker 3: And then just the ongoing troubleshooting, because as Timber Lab, another thing we're doing is really pushing the boundaries of what these machines can actually do. And the first machine we got from them was a 300 mil machine And the first question we asked them were like, can we go bigger than that? What can we push that to? And they ended up settling on let's push it to 305 mil, and so that's what we tried to do and we did it And it was. It's really cool to see how we can push that. And then other things like cut operations that maybe they see and see wasn't originally programmed to do, but we can find a way in the virtual world to prove it out that it can do it, and then bringing that development request to them of hey, we think the machine can do this, can you help us figure out how to make it do this? And they jump right on. Scm has been super responsive And I think they're just as excited about this industry as we are, and having a partner like us to test the machines, push the machines to the limits, is a good feedback loop for them to continue developing better machines. 

Speaker 3: And we look forward to our partnership with them because we have a pipeline of machines that will be coming from them. 

Speaker 3: And we really are excited about learning about the capability of all these machines because we're trying out a bunch of different ones from them, from a 300-mil machine to a 610-mil machine And then a panel machine eventually is coming to dual spindles And it's really cool to see the teams that are actually running these and figuring out how to troubleshoot them and do all that. And I think that's been the really cool part about the machines. Our other machines in the Pacific Northwest they're pretty good too, but they're a little older and older gen. But these newer machines are really cutting edge And the programming is a walk in the park, but it's a lot easier. A lot of it comes pre-programmed macros, so it's really kind of setting your cut strategies to where you need it to be and just allowing the machine to do what it does and working with them if any issues arise And they're all over it. So SEM all the way been a great partner and has been fun working with all them. 

Speaker 2: And the other thing they ask is what's the octane level in the fuel that you use? So the equivalent would be what's the software you're using to run the machine? So what's the TEM software? Is it proprietary to the manufacturer? And what's the CAD software you guys are running to make that connection between the two? 

Speaker 3: But I know the software is a proprietary software to SEM, it's called Maestro And they've been really great to teach us how to use Maestro And it's been pretty user-friendly. I joined the first FAT in Italy with Daniel and sat in a week of class training with them, and even someone like me with a big dumb brain when it comes to programming and computers, can start to figure this stuff out. So it's really exciting to see that the opportunity to work at Timber Lab is not necessarily a difficult hill to climb, so long as you work hard, you have passion, you want to give what you want to give right, you don't want to take, be a giver And be a team player, be respectful and really want to learn your craft. Because once you learn the software, it's all about that human aspect after that and how you operate with the people in the facility. And that's really the long-term challenge of maintaining a good culture of teamwork and facilitating that process between the different departments, from design, from sales, through design to detailing, to the manufacturing assembly part to construction, and make sure that we're just all on the same page the whole step of the way, so that we can have that seamless integration between the departments so that when it does get to site it becomes an assembly project like the airport, and pieces just start falling together And you see these buildings go up super fast. 

Speaker 3: We just finished a four-story project in downtown Portland called thesis, and I think that structure went up in five weeks. It was super fast. And that comes down to a partner, also on the owner side, that understands the connections and the simplicity that you can have with mass timber. And that's another thing we're trying to teach people about. The CNC side is, yeah, it's a CNC And it's got five or six accesses And it could do a lot of really cool stuff. 

Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, every machine has limitations And so getting those limitations out to the design community and the engineering community so that they can create a design of connections and details that offer their clients a cost-effective solution. And so it's when they start creating these really eccentric designs that were not well thought out in terms of how it would get fabricated, that's when we start to see cost skyrocket. And that's where we like to be brought in on the front end of a project to educate our clients and the design teams about how simple the process can be and how we can target that approach to clients to really hit their cost targets. Because that's really the big challenge with mass timber, it's getting in early. To influence the design, to have a simple connection, design and understand your column spacing and fire ratings and things like that. To make an ecosystem within your design that functions and you're not fighting with other systems. 

Speaker 2: I think the big thing out of what you've just commented on, for Timbalab is the same for everybody else, but one of the things I think that's come through as a recurrent theme is people and systems working together. 

Speaker 2: But then what you've done is you've wrapped this thing called culture around it, and so you've spoken about the culture of the place in which you work and that you're inviting others to also share in that culture, but they're not necessarily having to be an employee at Timbalab. 

Speaker 2: You can be an architect or an engineer who needs to understand the ramifications of, and limitations of, a CNC machine or the material Southern Yellow Pine versus Oregon up in the Northwest area. It's really interesting to see that you're almost saying that you're an extension of the market itself, and I think that concept is going to then support growth in the sector but also funneling and make it easier for you to be able to deliver on the promise. Because, as you said, doing that blood, sweat and tears on the digital design front up front meant that the PDX was delivered in a really simplistic, consistent and continuous way until it was done and it was fun. Now I don't often hear about project delivery being called fun. It's normally we're all great. Let's have a fight now. Let's all come together and say that was a great job and do it again. 

Speaker 2: Right. It's an interesting dynamic to see that what you're saying is that we're flipping the construction program on its head And we're actually making the painstaking aspect if we want to call it painstaking relatively the design phase and then the delivery is actually a lot smoother. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, and that influences so much from cost to schedule to, most importantly, safety. And it's like creating a design that's going to be safe to erect so that nobody gets hurt on the job site while it's getting erected. And you know, back to that piece about in, you know working with architects and engineers and the design community a whole and clients and you know anybody that's got questions really comes down to our mission to accelerate the mainstream adoption of Mass Timber in the US. It's you know it's still that small percentage and we want to see these commercial construction market like be able to benefit from Mass Timber. And you know that's where we can eventually have what we all want to have as a low carbon footprint on our impact from construction, because that's the biggest impact to the climate problem, with construction contributing what 35 to 40% of emissions to climate change. And that's really not cool. And it's so simple when you start to really understand how Mass Timber can work for your projects and how it can come together so simply And even having an opportunity to know exactly where your woods coming from, which was another great aspect of the airport project. It's such an awesome client on that project that they wanted to ensure their economic investment was going to the right kinds of forests and the right kinds of communities that were stewards of those forests and managing them well. And that was the first time that I've ever seen a client request that, because usually they would just go buy a glue lamp and the glue that manufacturers just buy in their lamb stock. And you know, when you have a client asking you to hone in on where that lamb stock is going to be coming from and ensuring that it's coming from sustainable sources. Down to actually meeting the stewards of these forests and allowing them to tell their story has been a really cool aspect of it, because it's something to celebrate what they're doing right. They're creating a renewable product and they're managing the stewardship of that to allow that to keep happening for generations to come. 

Speaker 3: And it's like you can't grow steel, you can't grow concrete. You can recycle it great, but that's also very energy intensive And the process to manufacture, engineer what product and fabricate it is really minimal, especially if it's a regional product projects like the airport, where we got all the wood within like 120 mile radius of the project. So it's like all of your main structures coming from your local forests, from people, that you can actually go meet and tell their story and celebrate them so that they can continue doing what they're doing and expand their capabilities to the greater market also. So it's a really holistic thing that's happening with this industry, and it's not just building a building anymore. It's bringing all the parts together and making it work, and making it work sustainably, and doing it in a way that celebrates the input from everybody, and the outcome is ultimately a carbon neutral building, or a building has less carbon that's gone into it and while also being able to store carbon, so it's that's definitely a growing side of the industry, and trying to understand, like, how to grow all that is still a science that's not totally figured out, and I think the main thing to think about, though, is just the energy. 

Speaker 3: The energy that goes into producing these different products and to transport them around the world is one of the challenges, and I grew up in masonry and concrete as a kid. My dad was a subcontractor, so I started working in the field when I was like 14 years old, and I had a really good time working in the concrete industry and built some really cool buildings and being able to shift from that in the manufacturing in taiwan to doing something like this has been has been life changing for me because I really enjoy the construction industry. I went to school to try to get myself out of the construction industry because I thought it'd be good for me, but I ended up right back in it because I'm passionate about what we do in this industry, that we're creating the spaces that people get to live in and work in and enjoy. And you know you're moving from one to the other. It's not just doing the same project every day. You're always working on a different project and you're working with different people and you're working on a big combined goal with, you know, a project that could include hundreds or thousands of people that need to be coordinated to make this thing happen and the energy behind that. 

Speaker 3: When it's a healthy project especially like the airport project everyone, everyone jumped on board with that, like if you gave that spec to anybody else on a normal project, if I want to know where this wood comes from, i don't want you to coordinate all that. They look at you like wide eyed and you know that's kind of how I looked the first time when I saw it and but as we started to work through it. The, the architect, learned a lot through that process also that It's not just putting a demand on the forest and the LAMSTOCK providers, it's like, hey, this is what we're looking for, what can you guys do and how can you guys show us that? And so it was an iterative process to develop that spec with the different landowners to identify the sustainability goals that the port was trying to hit. 

Speaker 3: And at first it seemed like a giant hill to climb, like oh my gosh, this is never gonna happen. And once we started talking to everybody and talking to the manufacturers and it took some talking and a little bit of pushing at first, but once they kind of got it and got the idea and understood the implications of what was happening, of, you know, what was happening behind the scenes was really a network of forests that are starting to develop that don't traditionally provide lumber to these types of projects, and those are a lot of small family businesses, those are a lot of tribal lands and large private lands, and giving them an opportunity to diversify their product offerings allows them to continue managing their forest well and hopefully, you know, improving and continuing to improve how they do their management. 

Speaker 2: I applaud the approach. I think it's another approach to get the community involved. If we take this concept that we've been talking about through this conversation further, the next step is human and digital and technology being wrapped around, and there's platforms for that to occur in platforms or people, platforms of technology. But then if you extend it now into the economic system and you look at the forestry system and you know Arnie and Craig Rawlings would always talk about you know it starts at the plantation and starts at the forest and forest health specifically. Now you're expanding how projects can actually become part of the living ecosystem, for you know Portland, for example, specifically with this project for PDX. The other thing that's really important, too, was this rationalization of using the right material and the right place. You know concrete and steel and timber all have a place And it's about finding the unique codex for that. That then it hits our sustainability goals And I think that's a common and recurrent theme that we're hearing more and more and more now. 

Speaker 2: I think first, when we started, we were ultra. Everything had to be CLT, including me, and we realized, well, we couldn't actually do it without a concrete podium. How the hell were we gonna get this level playing field. To build a basement car park? Well, it isn't gonna be in timber. And then we realized, oh, how are we gonna get the connections for the spline joints or the joints that are gonna sit with big connection systems between you know, trusses and columns and beams? Well, that's gonna be steel. So you know you can't do it without these other materials. But I think a rationalization of how you model it to be able to make sure you maximize energy, which is the keyword that I took away from your last little bit make sure that energy is maximized and is most efficient. 

Speaker 2: Yeah, while trying to minimize waste by trying not to make everything wood, I agree with that And look, it's been a great opportunity to catch up with you And I hope to do it again Once you've got a big project coming on board. Get your team together and we'll jump back online. But for a person that's involved in the manufacturing side of things, you have a really good sensibility about what's happening from a larger perspective in the industry and the market, and I just really thank you for your amazing insights. Every time I speak to someone from Swinard and Timbalab, there's something incredible that comes out of it, and this has been no exception. That this has been absolutely part of the course for the way that you communicate with the market And there's an invitation for people to become partners and grow with you. So thank you so much for your time on the podcast. 

Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks, paul, for inviting me. I'm new to the industry and I'm learning, but it feels right and the data is showing the right things And I'm not sure what all the answers are yet, but sometimes you got to go with your gut sometimes And I trust my gut on this that we're doing the right thing And I trust the data is far And this is a great opportunity and I appreciate being on your show and appreciate your knowledge around the mass timber. We're also asking great questions and it's really great to have that kind of exchange of information about this market. So thank you for that. 

Speaker 2: And anyone that's a customer of Swinard and Timbalab. you now know the man behind the scenes driving the manufacturing for the products, for the delivery, And you've just got some insights into him as an individual. So we're humanizing the way that manufacturing gets developed around the world through this podcast And we're trying to grow and create vested interests in creating more sustainable future through building in a different way. So thank you very much for your time again, Jared. we look forward to catching up with you again soon. 

Speaker 3: All right, thank you, Paul. 

Speaker 2: Thank you.