Two of the most powerful timber organisations in the United Kingdom have joined forces. The Timber Trade Federation (TTF) and the Timber Research And Development Association (TRADA) are now on a quest to change the world, one mass timber project at a time. Listen to this great conversation between two important influential stakeholders who have collectively transformed and forged the [mass] timber movement into what it has become globally known for today.
The episode is in two parts, please enjoy the first part. In the second part, we talk about technology, insurance, the future of mass timber in the UK and offer invitations to other construction technologies to support in joining forces to build better around the world.
Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com
Two of the most powerful timber organisations in the United Kingdom have joined forces. The Timber Trade Federation (TTF) and the Timber Research And Development Association (TRADA) are now on a quest to change the world, one mass timber project at a time. Listen to this great conversation between two important influential stakeholders who have collectively transformed and forged the [mass] timber movement into what it has become globally known for today.
The episode is in two parts, please enjoy the first part. In the second part, we talk about technology, insurance, the future of mass timber in the UK and offer invitations to other construction technologies to support in joining forces to build better around the world.
Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. This is the moment you all have been waiting for. It's time for the Global Sensation, the one, the only the undisputed heavyweight podcast in the world The Mass Timber Construction Podcast. And now here's Paul Kramer, your host.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bruce. Thank you very much for the introduction. Welcome once again to the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. I'm Paul Kramer, your host, and today we have very, very special guests. In fact, two special guests. One from Timber Trade Federation in the UK, dave Hopkins, is on board and the other is Nick Milestone, representing Trader, and they're going to be on today talking to us about the merger of the two monolithic organisations. So please welcome Dave Hopkins and Nick Milestone talking to me. The best pair of socks I own they are blue with pink bands and white riding. That says you're on mute Quota of the year 2020.
Speaker 3:Nice. I think it's quite a good function. actually, i want to have it for all meetings. When we go back to having physical meetings, you're going to miss the mute button. True, true.
Speaker 2:Anyway, thank you, appreciate it. David, thank you for your time. Nick, thank you for your time. Tell us a little bit about what's happening, because we've been reading lots of news, we've been seeing lots of articles come out, media releases. This is a significant change and what a merger. It's like two giants getting together and sharing some brain power. So please, one of you, take the lead and tell us what's happening.
Speaker 3:All right, i'll start, and thanks very much for the interest in it all. So I think there's a number of factors at play. First of all, the TTF and Trada are probably you know, timber trade federation and Trada two of the oldest and largest trade associations in the timber supply chain in the UK. The timber supply chain in the UK market has always been criticised as I think it probably is around the world for being fragmented, and there's a lot of reasons for that compared to a lot of other material businesses which are much more vertically integrated. So if you look at concrete or steel or these sorts of guys, the, the outlets for timber are much more diverse and the input businesses into that market are much more diverse because you know there's no intellectual property over growing trees, the capital investment programmes are very different in structure and so on. So you ended up with a lot of trade associations, trade bodies covering niches. You know fence posts, And fence posts in the fencing market is very different to mass timber and timber construction and so on, and so you start to see a lot of different representation in the market as a result.
Speaker 3:Timber Trade Federation has done a very good job in bringing that together from the similar importer, agent, distributor, merchant, part of the supply chain. Trad has done an excellent job in taking really building a membership which is has a good base of the timber suppliers but really has focused then on the timber manufacturing you know timber frame joinery company within the timber product supply chain and the specifier market And has really really developed that specifier market And the bulk of the membership. I forget now, but now that I'm part of the spot, exactly what the numbers are, but well over 1500 architects, engineers and sort of professional specifier members. So what you have is two kind of giant bodies which you can then plug together and you start to solve that problem of fragmentation because you're bringing everybody into one place. Trada has really built up an excellent name for itself as a home for technical information, center of excellence for technical information.
Speaker 3:Now that Nick talked more about that, ttf has done much more on the political lobbying. We've done a lot on, you know, advocacy, market analysis, a lot of work on the carbon front I'm sure we'll come to. Trada has done much more on the technical side and has been, i think, kind of well-recognized globally for doing that, for taking a leadership role. So putting them together we're hoping to make a powerhouse that can put Timber's voice much louder and stronger and more unified in the market and really take on an equal position to the likes of concrete and steel. We're not far off being of an equal value as a supply chain. It's a 10 billion pound supply chain in the UK alone. That's roughly in line with the concrete and steel industry in our country. So it gives us an equal status and a platform to build from.
Speaker 4:I'll stop there, nick Yeah there's a lot of history between the TTF and Trada. So Trada was born in what? 1934? So it's been going for some 87 years. Well, the origins of Trada started off within the TTF. Trada was actually born as a subcommittee, believe it or not, inside the TTF. When was the TTF formed, David, is that there?
Speaker 3:18? Yes, 1795, or something I can't remember.
Speaker 4:It's always been there. So Trada and TTF have always been one. It was only in 1934 that, because it was funded by the TTF, so income to the TTF actually went to Trada. So in 1934, it decided to go independence, standing its own two feet somewhere between World War I and World War II, and it's sort of gone off in its own way and it's been more focused on technical publications Now. Trada then subsequently evolved and created BM Trada, which had a sort of a wider commercial business interest. But the two very much remained different And that's not everybody thinks Trada and BM Trada are actually one and the same and were not.
Speaker 4:Trada is a not-for-profits trade association membership that takes knowledge and investment from its members and turns that into publications and materials. That's, we hope, is relatively keeping in line with current industry demands and innovations of how Tim has been used, from issues of wellbeing, healthy buildings, to the national structural timber specification which was originated within Trada. So it's done some amazing things and has had a bit of a global outreach as well, not only through themselves but through the links with BM Trada And over the years, and blessed to have been not just director but chairman for the last five years now and the chairman's been in the last two years, but two years is just not long enough if you want to make an impact. And as the board evolved, we evolved nicely into representation from architecture, engineering, general contractor, major supply chain investor. And I felt a few years back it was time we started to form those allegiances because the timber industry was coming under great criticism for being cottage and fragmented. So we know we had to do something. And quite a few years back, and without sort of reminding David of the pains of this, the BWF, the British Woodworking Federation, and the TTF were going to merge and we all thought, well, this is great and this is wonderful for the industry. Sadly it just didn't happen, probably through differences and the like. So I will direct that one up. So we were very, very careful this time around. So a few years back I asked David Hopkins to join the Board of Trader to create a more collaborative approach to the industry.
Speaker 4:And the beauty of Trader, compared to where the TTF, which started as one, is now two separate associations, is the fact that Trader's very much at the end of the spectrum of Architects, engineering specifies, technical publications, ttf very much being at the heart of the supply chain itself And both operating completely different spheres. You know very much the lobbying side, where very much none of our lobbying were about technical publications, getting free information out there in the public domain to give people confidence to build with timber, so you know. And the contractors, and especially the evolution of the offsite industry as well. And the lights so your CLTs, your mass timbers coming into the equation, the technology associated with timber frame as well, you know, coming to more prefabricated flat pack and volumetric construction. So trial has really evolved in that space.
Speaker 4:And then, of course, covid, you know, was truly the catalyst for this. We had been talking about how we could create a one entity. Now we do have in the UK and David sits on the chair of the CTI, which is the Confederation of Timber Industries, which was an attempt to create a collaborative umbrella of all the associations. So a little bit of sovereignty going on in there. That's to be expected. Everybody wants to protect their members. But COVID was really the catalyst for this because we felt that, well, we as trade associations are very vulnerable when companies shrink. We saw that from the financial crisis. We saw our membership and income drop as a result of and we are a luxury. There's no two ways about it. So, you know, been going in for 85, 86 years, you know, and as hopefully the outgoing German, i will be wanting to create a legacy.
Speaker 4:And our members who are on the supply chain, on the board, were very raised their voices, saying why can't we just use this opportunity and have one association? Well, it was an absolute no-brainer. The whole board was unanimous in that equation. So we made the decision well, let's investigate, you know, and taking the lessons learned from the field merger of the BWF and the TTF, not to make the same mistakes. So we did it, absolutely by the buck, with representation from legal councils on both behalf.
Speaker 4:We looked, we created a steering committee of some directors from Trader, some directors from the TTF to form, if you like, you know how can I say an engagement process before we got married, to look at how the two could integrate. And you know, an integration can be very complex because, whilst Trader, we have zero employees in the organisation, we are wholly reliant on BM, trader, warrens and Faya as our service provider And they operate on behalf of the Trader members from collection of the money to the creation of the publications. So we, so we've more, had an easier journey of asset and liability. David, on the other hand, in the TTF is a fully run employee organisation and with a lot more number of directors. So there's always going to be those complications of bringing two houses together.
Speaker 4:But to be honest, it's been thorough, it's been professional. We brought in an exceptional character called Chris Sutton who is the ex CEO managing director of Lathams in the UK, who has got to be absolutely respected for his bullishness of keeping us all on track. Keeping us all on track. Frustrating and as annoying as he was some days, he was absolutely spawned And and and all work in Sunday nights to 11 o'clock at night, even speaking with our legal councils at 11 o'clock on a Sunday night, making sure that we were hitting our deadlines. And those deadlines were made of creating a memorandum of understanding and then getting the agreement of everybody taking it to a vote to our membership. Both respective memberships were consulted as well If they had any grievances or disagreements on this proposed merger. And when we got the buy-in we then focused on a merger agreement and the Articles of Association And we took that to a vote to both respective boards. And we've not pleased everybody during this process, but the people we haven't pleased has been an absolutely very, very small minority.
Speaker 4:During this process We've acted diligently, doing our respective due diligence on both organisations. It's been thorough and we've even upset Chris Sutton himself saying back off, chris, we need time to reflect on this. This is not immediate decisions we can make. It has to go through consultation. But do you know what, in fairness to Chris, being pragmatic on the Trader end and David's end from what was an idea back in effectively March, when lockdown kind of happened, we were quick to jump onto this. Here we are less than 12 months later and we are in a place where we're hoping by February, the 16th, the transaction will take place Quite simple, and Trader will be acquired by the TTF to form what will become timber development in the UK.
Speaker 4:And I will close in a minute. But the last stay of an hour and a half to make was the way we recognised this. It wasn't just about consolidation because of COVID. We saw this as an opportunity to actually grow the market by having a stronger voice and becoming more robust, because what we're effectively going to create is our own vertically integrated supply chain from the supplier of the materials locally or within the country through distribution all the way through to the specifiers, the architects, the engineers and contractors. We have gone completely vertically integrated in this whole process And I think we're hopeful, in time, that what we will create will snowball and other associations within the UK may wish to become part of this journey, because we are so much stronger as one voice. The battle isn't within the timber industry. The battle is against steel and concrete, more so, in my opinion, concrete being the most offending high carbon material on the planet. I'll let Dave, if you want, to pick up from any of that.
Speaker 3:Dave, the point I was going to make there was about growing the market actually, because by having everyone under one roof under one umbrella if you like you create a much better sense of dialogue between the specifiers and suppliers, producers, manufacturers and so on. You start to understand everybody's needs. What are the barriers in the market? what are the opportunities? how do you adapt to that? how do you change all those sorts of things? I think when you've there are good reasons to have a trade association which has kind of a niche position, only representing one part of a supply chain or one group of within a business sector, but it becomes quite defensive rather than open and willing to grow. You know a lot of those things if you look at the strategies and the methods they employ. It's about protecting an interest which is perfectly understandable in lots of different areas, rather than having an open dialogue. That's really what we want to create in order to grow that market.
Speaker 2:Essentially, you've had the child come back to the parent effectively with the child, with Trada exiting at some point in the past, coming back again. It's almost a renaissance, a marriage that's come back again. The interesting thing I've noted is that since the MOU signing in October it's been a very, very rapid process to get to where you are now. I wonder what changes and what strategies will be put in place now and specifically focusing on mass timber now. I know that TTF has a number of divisional subcommittees or groups that focus on timber species mainly, whether it be softwoods or hardwoods. Is this new development organisation going to broaden its scope? that will be a shared strategy between the two divisions that are sort of coming together to form the new entity.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I think that I mean the TTF will still retain a softwood trading division which is really looking at global market analysis and on-the-ground market reports. Often it's looking at a statistical picture And likewise with the hardware and panels division What we would be doing it. But meanwhile Trader has been doing a heck of a lot on producing publications for getting the specifications right for closed-panel timber frame, for mass timber, and Nick really has been the person driving a lot of that as Chair of Trader and from in his various other roles which he's had concurrently with being Chair of Trader, which are too numerous to count now.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Can't be everywhere to everybody.
Speaker 3:But he's had a very big role in developing timber construction in the UK And then combined that with being Chair of Trader and getting the publications and the various specification documents out. We haven't got. You know, I'm not going to sit here and publish a full timetable about how the internal structure is going to go, But you're absolutely right. We will be putting those sorts of things together, Making sure that we do have a group that looks at timber construction and is making sure that we've got the right specifications into the market And getting the right details. For us, actually, the first thing that we're creating as a joint enterprise is a sustainability committee. It's probably the strongest suit within the timber armory And we've got COP26, the climate change talks at the end of the year. It's something that actually unites all of the parties and all the different elements of the supply chain And we want to be able to put that together.
Speaker 3:Ttf already has a group called Forests Forever. It was set up in the 90s to try and clean up the supply chains coming in to the UK At the time when all of the changes were happening with timber supply chains about developing certification, due diligence, yada, yada. That still exists, but you know, actually the timber industry is one of the least risky places to get deforestation commodities right now, certainly through our membership. There are high risk areas. The majority of it of us is low risk. Higher risk stuff is actually in buying ornaments and knickknacks that you buy off the market, not through a construction supply chain. The due diligence stuff is pretty strong and pretty confident of that. It doesn't mean you should ever let up on the risks inherent in that, But I'm pretty confident about it.
Speaker 3:What we want to do now with that group is putting together that sort of supply chain sustainability with the agenda that exists within the built environment, which is really carbon waste, you know, circular economy issues And a lot of stuff about design and designing for sustainability rather than just a material supply issue.
Speaker 3:It's putting that whole package together, And so that will be one of the first areas, certainly during the course of this year, where we can bring those two agendas together. I think they are complementary anyway And we can combine that sort of committee with the publications from Trada, webinars and seminars and other work from TTF and other speakers and really bring that in to make something quite powerful to make sure that we've got all of our data there in the right place And from there we're going to build out. Really, I think it's next year 2022, that you'll see a much more integrated package and you can start to see those new committees as they form, but they're going to be developed over the course of this year. So it's building. I think, rather than trying to reinvent the wheel. We'll be building on or expanding out from what we already have within the two groups and mixing them up a little bit more.
Speaker 2:So there you have it. There's part one of the two part series talking about TTF Timber Trade Federation in the UK and Trada in the UK. We'd like to thank Dave and Nick for their time. Look forward to the second episode coming out very, very shortly, where we conclude and talk more a little bit about the situation in the UK when it comes to insurance, the future of cross-laminated timber, the future of BIM and the way that BIM's evolving, and just a general catch up on mass timber and how it's moving around the world. Stay tuned. Speak to you next time. Thank you very much for listening to the podcast.