Mass Timber Construction Podcast Special Guest - Adam Jones - CLT Toolbox

In this very special guest episode of the podcast, I speak with Adam Jones the founder of the CLT Toolbox. We talk about the Why we need to eliminate embodied carbon from the built environment for the betterment of humanity. How to build software products that demonetizes the cost of sustainability, and What CLT Toolbox does to make mass timber design easier than concrete or steel. 

Adam Jones is the Founder of CLT Toolbox, a structural design software that aims to make mass timber design as easy as concrete or steel. Adam is on a mission to remove the bottlenecks to the adoption of mass timber by providing engineers with the tools and education needed to confidently design mass timber structures.

Leading a highly talented team of structural engineers, software developers, and sales professionals from around the world, Adam has developed a software that automates mass timber design routines and provides the education that was missing at university. CLT Toolbox offers trusted computation routines for mass timber calculations, enabling engineers to become timber specialists and tackle mass timber calculations with ease.

Adam’s commitment to promoting sustainable building practices and sharing knowledge with others has earned him industry recognition, including being named Future Green Leader of the Year by the Green Building Council of Australia in 2019. 

In addition to his work with CLT Toolbox, Adam is a prolific author and podcaster. He co-hosts What You Will Learn podcast with over 8 million downloads and the popular Timber Talks podcast interviewing the world leading experts on timber design. He is also a best selling author of the book The Sh*t They Never Taught You. Through his expertise and innovative software solutions, Adam continues to inspire and educate others, driving innovation and the adoption of sustainable building practices.

To learn more, go to https://clttoolbox.com.au

Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com

Sponsors of the Podcast:

International Association for Mass Timber Construction (IAMTC)
The International Association for Mass Timber Construction aims to promote and deliver value to its members and associated stakeholders through an all-encompassing approach to advocacy, thought-leadership, development for the architecture, engineering, construction, manufacturing sectors, provide education, training/teaching and research in establishing a global mass timber construction sector across the five contents of the world.

Transcript

Welcome to the Mass Timber Construction podcast. Paul Kramer back with another special guest episode. And if you've ever had an issue with trying to figure out which span tables, for which project, which product you need to use, for which solution on a building, construction, engineering, or architectural problem on a project, you might want to speak to our next guest very, very soon. His name is Adam, and he's here today to have a chat to us about some amazing developments in his world. Adam, please introduce yourself and tell all listeners exactly what you're doing right now. 

Great to be on here, PK. So I'm a structural engineer. My background, I started out in concrete or steel working on the big 80 story buildings. Always interested in the intersection between structural materials and sustainability. And basically that just leads you to timber. I really know where else out there. So I've gone really deep in this niche from the very start. So I was the first student at Monash University to do a final year project in CLT. And I've been in this space in one way or another since the start of my career. So CLT Toolbox speaker, there's two big problems that we solve with what we've got. Like number one is Excel spreadsheets. 

Every structural engineer out there is building Excel spreadsheets to do the design side of their structure. But when you do a spreadsheet, everyone's building the same spreadsheet. So you're reinventing the same wheel. A lot of the times the first spreadsheets you build aren't the correct ones, so there's an issue there. And then when a new design method comes through, like Eurocode, the vibration method, which is going to be the best practice going forward, everyone's spreadsheets become redundant. So there's a big problem there that we're solving. There's obviously other software tools out there like the LubeLara.fm, which is really good analysis. 

There's StoreEnzo's Calculatus, but that locks you into one supplier. But we basically solve the design side to give engineers a flexibility to choose between the best supplies for their job within the whole timber ecosystem. The second problem we solve is CLT or mass timber in general. It's not taught at university. This is especially in Australian context. I understand Europe is probably a bit ahead of us where we are right now. But knowing where to read or what guides to read in the first step is really hard. And then what to read within that guide is also really difficult. So put that together. It takes hundreds of hours to actually learn how to do mass timber design and you have to do it on on the job and that means that employer is investing in you to do it or you get a trade in your weekends for it or build go out there and build spreadsheets. So it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars, meaning engineers who are doing their first mass timber project for the first time, they have to run it out of loss. So essentially we see ourselves as putting in that design infrastructure, solve it once, solve the design method once, make it available for all users to actually get on board. And we thought we can drive down the cost of designing these buildings. So that's all we're here for. - 

All right, excellent. And it's true that your last name is Jones. Is it true that you're related to Indiana in any way? - Correct, correct. Yeah, Indiana. Now, not quite. It's funny you say that, PK. Like last week, my fiance, we were talking about when we have a kid, what we're gonna call it. And for some reason, she pulled out Indiana for a girl's name. So who knows, there might be another Indiana Jones coming down the line, talking about what we're talking about here. I know from many years of knowing you that you're an adventurous entrepreneur and you don't pointy punches when it comes to trying to do something brave as you articulated in your Monash final year project with the Mastimba out of the university program. And I think taking on such a big challenge to try and get this software to accommodate all the different variations of code, the combination of methodologies that might be used in design spreadsheets. How are you bringing all of this together? So what's the main intelligence vehicle which sits behind being able to provide this unique and utilitarian service to the Mastinba community? - 

Yeah, so we've got our teams being building. We've got our own operations in place really to build out this software. So we've got a team of structural engineers in one office in Ethiopia. So Wendy is leading that office alongside Lelisa, who's a female engineer over there. I hired them early days and I was just absolutely blown away with the level of talent they've got. They've actually uncovered all the ways I've been doing CLT design, not best practice it turns out. And then we've got a team of software developers out of Semarang Indonesia. So we're currently in the process of scaling out both teams and having individual business development managers who are like, you know, engineering leaders within specific regions as well. So that's just basically just building out the processes there, building Excel spreadsheets, turning them into software and making the software as powerful as we possibly can. And then the next set PK is once we've got all the individual calculations in the structural engineering profession, we're also looking at sustainability, acoustics as well and costing. And that way you can actually map the individual calculations up to the kit of parts level. And then as an optioneering tool, pass on to architects and developers, all the different options and toggle through and actually have a live structural design updating alongside costs and alongside supply chain availability as well. So that's sort of where we're heading towards is that kit of parts infrastructure. 

I'm a big advocate of software in general, and we've talked a lot on this podcast for people trying to get the golden sort of trilogy. And that is that the manufacturing speaks to the architectural speaks to the engineering, and no one's been able to do it. I think the closest we've got at the moment is probably HSB on Revit. if Revit users are using millimeter tolerances rather than tolerances that might sit within families that are not so tight. And then you've still got to export that. You've still got to put that into some sort of engineering program and you've got to bring it back in again. And then you've got this whole conversation around BIM. And so it sounds to me as if you're trying to fulfill or facilitate this relationship between, not so much the software talking, but this interaction between the way that an engineer might actually undertake their calculations, which seems to be the gap between the person that may be client or architect facing an engineer, then working with the manufacturer's suppliers, and then that has to feed into BIM, if BIM is being used at all. And so I would suggest that what you're doing is putting in another brick in the wall for what I call, and what most people call, building information management. And that means it's not necessarily a software for modelling, It's around the management of the information that facilitates a total global utility for the project. So how did you come up with the idea? Was it one day over a coffee, you just sat down and went, "This is what I'm going to do, and this is what I'm going to come up with?" 

Well, it was just like being market facing in my previous roles as technical manager at XLAM and an engineer advisor for solutions. It was really quite an obvious thing that Concrete and Steel has that MassSymba hasn't. And that's, you know, as I was saying about the spreadsheet. So it's basically, there's a lot of, it's quite an obvious software solution whenever anyone's building spreadsheets because all the repetition. But, you know, in that common you were saying before, on that, say design through the file, through to automated manufacturing utopia, there is like an ecosystem evolving in there. And no one's really solved the whole thing. Like, Katerra had a crack, as we know, and Len Lee's podium were playing about that space as well, which is really like deliberate strategies by one company trying to solve the whole lot. And you could say maybe it didn't work out. But from my perspective, what seems to be happening, there's a lot of startups in the software space building specific solutions or more established players as well like HBSpeak or whoever it might be, or Grasshopper or Parametric Design software out there. And as we go forward, the API, the application program interfaces where you can basically plug and play into software solutions. You know, I believe in the next five to 10 years, there's gonna be the existing model, which is really relying on consultant teams, meetings, time between meetings, individual modeling and stuff like that, to potentially a software stack solution where you've got software solving individual specific problems within that stack, but eventually as you group them together, it might be a much preferred solution going forward. So where we see ourselves in both of that, we're obviously a tool to allow structural engineers to do things in the existing model. There's nothing out there like what we're doing. But in the long run, we're going to be the best in the world at solving the specific problems of the mathematical structural design infrastructure. And we're building in a solver as well. So existing engineering firms, when they got their software developers, building their analysis through the design workflows, they can use our solver to actually size things up and actually toggle into what's readily available in the supply chain as well. So that's sort of my thoughts on the design to file Utopia. It's not an emergent ecosystem. And there's plenty of players, I'm sure you've spoken to a whole bunch of them on your podcast. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the people that are listening who don't know you, maybe those people not from Australia, they don't know that you've actually got a couple of podcasts shows yourself. And one of them is completely not related to this topic, this sector or industry, but it is related to you getting on a podcast every week and reading a book. And I'm just curious to know which of the million books that you've read was the book that really led you to try and break this code and go, this is the problem we're facing and this is the book or the solution or the theory or the model that we need to use to apply to that to create it. Was there a moment like that at all for you? 

Yeah, great question, Paul. There is. So the What You Will Learn podcast, we've got the Timber Talks podcast as well, which is obviously an hour niche. And then What You Will Learn podcast with that 8 million downloads and 150,000 listeners per month. And we wrote a book as well alongside that. So we've obviously a passionate reader and that has been a lot of my entrepreneurial outlet over the last five or six years as well. I'd say the one book out of everything, there's a whole bunch that culminated in going after this business. I'd say the Almanac of Naval Rubicon and out of all the personal finance or business books, I think this is by far the best. And what it talks about specifically on the finance, whether you're a business or an individual, is that there's actually three things that you need to have, three boxes you need to tick. Number one is accountability. You need to have skin in the game out. They're actually trying to do something. Number two is specific knowledge. Have a skill set that's not commodified and quite niche that no one else can do, and perhaps you're the best in that individual category. Number three is this concept of leverage. So, you know, when you think about leverage, there's different ways like you can leverage people. In the past, that was like your Ray Crox and your Henry Ford's leveraging and managing people. And they were the richest people in the world. Then following that, you had those who could use the leverage in the form of money and cash, like Warren Buffett and George Soros and whatnot. But more recently, the most powerful plays in terms of business has been the leverage in terms of zero costs of replication. And that is anything to do with software essentially. So Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, Sir Gabriel, anything like that. And the idea of zero replication cost is once you build it once and you put all the money into the capital layout upfront, it costs zero dollars to replicate the same task going forward. So, you know, J.K. Rowling, she puts all the effort into writing the one Harry Potter book, and then it doesn't cost much different if she sells it once or a billion times. And I think this is the one thing we could learn a lot from in construction is finding the things with zero marginal cost of replication because the replication costs are absolutely huge across everything design, design, construction, quality assurance, side inspections, the whole lot. And out of that whole area of things we repeat all the time, I just found one of them. And that was quite simply everyone's repeating the same tasks when it goes to building spreadsheets and it's not taught at university. It's not the sexiest software tool we've built compared to the others, but it's a real problem in the market out there that we're solving. If you think about structural engineering, it's like you start a building, you design the beam once, you go through all that effort, you do the design reports, you get reviewed, you design that beam of column connection on the floor, say 9x6m agreed or something like that, you throw it all out and you start again and then you repeat the same process. So there's the replication costs are unusually massive in construction. Nothing the biggest construction companies let alone startups in 2030 are going to be the ones that simply to solve the cost of replications and build infrastructure, design infrastructure as a software solution that others can actually jump on the back on to drive down the cost of construction and more specifically sustainability. 

And I think there's a little bit of Schumpter in this too. Schumpter had this concept of what's called creative destruction, and that is it's the destruction of one institution to then effectively have a Phoenix of the next institution that's coming through. And I think your capacity to be able to take an accumulated task that is effectively invested and it's a sunk cost for an individual firm can then be, as you mentioned, taking it into a software program replicated, but then spread to the masses or anyone that subscribes to your platform. And then that replication can occur. But I'm wondering what the next step is going to be. I mean, it's one thing to take spreadsheets out of the hands of people and give them a program that they can input what they need to do. What happens to the creativity that is to be added to that. Because I think when you have a design for a project, it's fairly unique. You know, there will be replication through the project itself on floor levels or it might be pods or room elements or whatever. But sometimes there's always this unique challenge. What about customization? Is there is there going to be a code or capacity to write script or something like that that will go into the program at a next iteration? 

Yeah, so there is that opportunity for invention. I think when you get rid of the replication, you end up with a boring task and you solve all of that. It does give engineers or the whole project teams the power to actually innovate in a better way. Amazon Web Services, they solved a lot of problems for software developers like security, APIs, storage, all this sort of stuff. and it didn't take away those jobs. It just built a better platform for other software developers to come on and do a better job from and again drive down the costs of what software development was. So I think in essence, we can drive down the costs and I think we'll release a huge bottleneck for Master Timber if we actually get the cost down because we have the two out of the three, which is shawings and that's better for human health, better for the environment. And if costs are actually better, then we're going to have no problem nor with with some of the bottleneck isn't design teams. The bottlenecks is gonna be pushed down to just basically scaling up the factories within the supply chain and whatnot. But yeah, the future's huge, P.K. Who knows what it's gonna be? Like you can't be a startup now or a consultant and not look at ChatGPT and some of the things that's happening in AI and think, what is ChatGPT seven or eight tailored to a design context, going to mean for construction. And, you know, I think that creative destruction idea, I think there's always going to be an opportunity for humans, but it's sort of just having that pro-activity being ready to actually embrace what's coming and be on the right side of history. And, you know, for those with that attitude, there's huge potential and opportunities coming. You know, I get the feeling that it might move from like everyone's spending all their time designing buildings and then starting again. But instead of that, maybe a grade team spoke, focusing at the product level, like a kit level, optimising a kit for perfection and the scale up that kit to make a building. And then that way you actually get all the talent shifted to something that that can be scalable and again, drive and get rid of all that replication costs, turning that down to zero and scaling up a small solution. And, you know, the Lego, if you look at the Lego brick tournaments, it looks as a kid when you're five years old, you can build pretty boring Lego bricks. But if you look at it online, they build pretty amazing buildings in that and the way they actually shape it and the architecture you can reach. So I think that's a possibility as well is innovating in these new ways. Who knows where we'll end up in the next five, 10 years. 

The big thing that you mentioned there was chat GPT or Generative AI and natural language programming is becoming quite prevalent now and soon we'll see bots that are more intelligent, much like chat GBT. Let's hope that they get rid of the fantastical tales it can tell you and get to an accuracy level that's quite akin to something that can be verified. And I guess that is the next point. There are people now talking about the vigilance of AI and the responsibility that it has for decision determination, agency, application and accountability. In terms of your platform and your program, you've got engineers working in the background supporting your program. What sort of assurances have we got for very risk averse engineers that are sitting here thinking, "I really like this CLT toolbox, Adam, but please tell me how am I going to verify outside of your spreadsheet without having a look at the spreadsheet itself, the calculations so I can be sure it's actually doing the right thing?" So what response would you say to people like that? Yeah, great, great question. So I'd say the first away we try and account for that. And when I did a white paper before starting all this, I did a lot of research, interviewing engineers and not being a black box was the number one that came up pretty much every time. It's a frustration that engineers can't see the calcs behind it. So we've really mapped out the detailed computation line by line, gone back to a reference. And there's no, at no stage, you'll know what the software is not trying to do, at least you know what we're trying to do every single time. And I think that transparency allows that feedback from customers that if the long tail case that something wasn't correct, would always actually find out pretty quickly if it's not a black box because it's in touch with the reality and people's eyeballs. But that's down the line, we've obviously got our own internal review process. So we build our calculators, we have a second engineer who wasn't part of it verifies line by line every single calculation element. We do use other software to verify our calculations on top of that and prints it out there. Um, only then does it go in the software as a beta symbol. And then we actually get a third party review from an engineer who's not related to us at all whatsoever to review it again. And then only then will it lose the beta symbol and will go up into the software as, uh, as a working calculator. So there really isn't a better way of more thorough review process. and like we've got right there. And if you compare that to the status quo, which is an engineering firm, a lot of the time doing CLT or mass timber the first time, doing the calc for the first time, maybe an engineer within the firm, you know, instead our third party review process are from the very best engineers in the world and they're reviewing what we're doing as well. So at the very end of that, you can be sure that we've gone through every check and balance really to make sure that calculations are correct. 'Cause we don't wanna be putting software out there it isn't correct, trust me Paul. I don't want to be doing that. You don't want to be talking to your insurers Adam, that's what I think. 

All right, so we've talked about you as Indiana Jones on this amazing exploration. You've found this amazing opportunity, you've created this great dynamic team, you've brought together this particular platform, you've told us about what the problem in society, in our mass timber society that is, it's trying to solve. You've told us about some of the risks and the mitigation of of those risks. Now tell us exactly what can this software do? If I pick up this software or I get a demo from you, what do I enter into in the first instance and where can I go? 

Yeah. So you can go, we'll start on that one. So if you want to get it, you just type in a Google CLT toolbox and it'll come up and .com or .au. We've got both domains pointing to the website at the moment. But following that, what did it actually do? If you're an engineer and and you've got an architect saying, "I want to do a sustainable building," and your CLT for the first time. Our niche is really getting the engineers who haven't done it before up to a design level where they're fully confident. With the architect's plans, you can actually design all the individual elements that make up a mass timber building. Like your CLT floor design, or go through one example for fire design, can be quite complex. What's the glue line integrity and failure, what's the char rates, inputting your encapsulation, fire on both sides, your eccentricity has changed on both ends, let alone all the supply chain in there. Some suppliers have C24 or the same grade all the way, some suppliers are varying. There's a lot of complexity in there. If you're starting out for the first time, that could take 100 hours in itself, but we sold it all in the one hit. That's a fire design, what's On top of that, we've got a full education in there. So, you know, for glue line integrity, we've got all the char rates. We've got a video in there to show and describe what's actually going on in here. And with that, with that one stop, you can get all the calculation design, all the education that you need to actually design that with full confidence. And it's the same across the calculation. So our first mass timber module, it does have all the 16 core calculators you need for mass timber, but we are expanding. Our next expansion is going to be on connection design for a similar way, light frame design, hybrid connection and hybrid design. And eventually we've got the whole timber ecosystem in the one place. 'Cause right now there are some suppliers with free software solutions out there, but you need to go to this supplier to do connections and that supplier and really having it all in the one ecosystem is a big thing for structural engineers and we'll take them to the next step. And it's basically simplifying mass timber design to make it easier than concrete or steel. That's our goal. And I think without software, the calculators we have anyway, it does make it easier than what conventional construction is. - 

And the Utopia is obviously to have timber sit along concrete and steel. I'm a huge advocate for it. Everybody's an advocate for using the right material in the right place for the right purpose at the right time. Because availability may be an issue when it comes to supplier projects. You've started only a month ago now? - Yeah, well, the software has been out for about a month now. We started our beta user program. So we're just slowly letting engineers in to use it and play around with it, aware that the first version is gonna have more bugs than the later ones. So it's that balance of moving as fast as you can, getting engineers in there, being a startup, getting the revenue happening, getting that engine running. But at the same time, you'd want engineers to be on it when there's like enough value in there to not churn. So that's the balance we're playing with. But yeah, it is moving at a fast rate and like every three weeks we're doing an update with more calculators and more advancements in there as well. - Yeah, and I think you should do a, you can't do key feature Friday because someone's already taken that, but maybe you can do a CLT feature Thursday or something like that. you should do a LinkedIn post to promote one feature of your software, like our good friends at CMBuilder too. And you know, that's who I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a good idea, Paul. It's like, it's just the bandwidth at the moment. I reckon I definitely will get on a regular posting schedule at some stage. We actually got more, more inbound leads than we can handle for the beta user program. So it's just a really positive sign. But when we get to that point where we're just in the scale mode, we'll go hard on all the socials there. And like you were talking before about the products like CLT is the beachhead, the first product that represents the category. It is going to be the Timbereco system. And we are going to have steel and concrete to a very minor extent. 

Okay, our goal by our why as a company is to eliminate embodied carbon from the built environment. But having said that, we're not dogmatic. Steel isn't an abler for timber as well as concrete at some stages. And we see the future is like timber can only embody carbon. It's such a massive problem. It's timber might only solve 15% of it or 20% of the overall problem. Concrete and steel there's going to be a lot more innovation in those categories or all materials all together in there. And we're keen as to get them onto our platform as well. So be the platform for basically sustainable structural design. Empower engineers really to make their impact on the environment. Because as an engineer, you can bring your key cup to work or you can ride to work. But if you get to work and architect asks for a sustainable building and you say, and you don't look at mass timber whatsoever, and you only look at concrete and you're actually a blocker to concrete, blocker to Mastimba. It's the equivalent of about a million coffee cups and a million kilometers of driving to work, right? It's like, it's the funniest thing. So engineers, I think we could eat all the steaks that you want forever. You can bring your plastic bags to the shop, you can do whatever you want if you're designing in Mastimba because by far it is the highest leverage action you can do as a as a building designer is at least considerate. And when it's the most applicable for the application, you can put your hand up, you can pull out the mass timber option and then it off it goes. But not having that in the toolkit is a major blocker. And it really is undermining your potential to actually contribute to the embody carbon reduction that we're gonna need in the next few decades. - 

Well, the real host of a podcast has just come out and you now Adam, I feel a bit redundant right now, all we the same as spreadsheets. But I also noticed that the CLT Toolbox had a thing called kits. I'm not sure whether you have post and play in there, but you've probably got post and beam and you've probably got ribbed systems. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about what the kits do inside the CLT Toolbox? - So CLT Toolbox is the main product we're released right now. CLT kits is the work in progress. It's still gonna be a little while away. But once you've actually solved the individual calculators, to help the structural engineer. That's when we map them up at the kit's level and we've got the calculations with the supply chain costing in the back end as well, which we're gonna have. And at the kit level, that means an architect or a builder and actually at the very start of a project, toggle through the options. 'Cause in my experience at XLAM was a lot of the time a developer just wants to know how much does it cost and how much more sustainable actually is it? those two things and the current status or the current way of finding the answer to those questions is a long design development process to the point where you need the structure design, you need to get the quantity surveyor involved and the sustainability consultant to do an LCA. That can take a long time and by that time, they're like, "Stuff it. This is too hard. We're going back to what we know best." 

What we're solving is that very moment at the very start, the builder or the developer or the architect, the client, whoever, can actually toggle into our software, choose the option, play with the different grid sizes, say it is a post and beam system, nine meters by six, or they might need 10 meters by five or whatever it might be. And then as they're changing that, the structure will are sizing up in the back end. But at the same time that's happening, we've got the cost map to it and the sustainability performance. So it is an optioneering tool at the very start. They can choose it and they can get a rough idea and answer those questions, is it more sustainable? What is the cost relatively within a certain percentage points and then apply those kits at the kit level to their actual architecture with a level degree of accuracy and understanding about what implications they have and not waiting for so long and spending all that money on consultant fees just to find out, is this feasible? So that's what CLT kits is, PK. - 

Sounds like a really good beta opportunity coming up when you get to that level of development. We've talked about the inputs, we've talked about the mechanistic way that the program works to provide a utility. What are the outputs someone gets? What am I gonna get? You mentioned before, I can look at the computation, I can actually scrutinize that and scrutinize that myself. But what do you actually spit out of the program and how does, what form does that come in? - So yeah, great question. So, you know, a few prongs, so you could do the calculations initially to do your prelim design. But at the end of the day, the engineer, every time they need to submit their design reports, their detailed design reports, and that is really the output that an engineer can get with us. So you can build your project, choose all your calculations in it, and then add your beams, your columns, your connections, everything into the one design report. And then we do have a PDF version of that. And with that, you can actually submit it for your building approval as well. So currently a lot of the time, there are other software solutions do individual elements of that. But most of the time, again, it's using spreadsheets combining with Microsoft Word, a bit of analysis to actually get there. And, you know, our way is much simpler and quicker than status quo in that sense. Only in the business, you'd say that when you're P.K. You would. And is it true also if people go to the YouTube videos that you've created for the CLT toolbox that you're trying to get apart as Chris Hemsworth's body double? Well, that's the whole point. That's what we're going for. It's all that matters in my life. No, it's like I used to get that when I was a bit younger and more attractive. I'd have a lot more lookalikes, but I think after running a business, there's like a bit more hair falls out and you lose a bit of your... You sacrifice a few workouts and you put on a few extra KGs and it's just not quite the same. So it's really refreshing to hear that question because I feel like it's been five years since I've got to go to the comment like that one. It's all for love of thunder. It's all for love of thunder. That's what it is, my friend. 

Adam, it's been fantastic to have you on the podcast this afternoon. I'm sure that there's many more things we could talk about in a more diverse and more granular way, but we're not going to because we're going to save it for once you actually get through your beta testing. If subscriptions for that have filled up, when are you expecting to go sort of live? How many users are you expecting? What's the entry point in terms of the costing? Is that going to be a global model or is that going to be an Australian dollars for the Europeans and the US that can get an advantage? How is that all going to work? The costing, two lines of releasing it, is probably something we're figuring out as we go through the beta user program. It will be a one cost for Australia and Europe. is our initial Australian, New Zealand and Europe, is our initial markets and USA sort of lagging that as well and will be in the US next year. But yeah, we're not price ridiculously as pretty standard for structural engineering software. That's out there of this kind. But yeah, I would recommend anyone just going through the website and just sending us an email. And we are taking more and more beta users, at the moment, it is a bit of a waiting period, but just sending us an email will get you on the software the quickest. And it could be three, four months before we actually make it publicly available where you can just basically purchase it, jump straight on, and has that product ledged strategy. So I think just on the website and sending some emails the way to go. - Well, the greatest thing that anybody can give is the gift of feedback, which if you take that as a blessing is one of the most valuable things to develop such an important software, such as the one that you're trying to develop with your team. And I can't thank you enough for doing what you're doing. You know, if the purpose of this podcast is to try and spread and provide education and information that then continues to grow the mass timber sector in areas or pockets of the world where it's not currently available and people are thinking about what can I do moving forward or scaling up capabilities in places that have already got access to mass timber products or new markets which are just begoining and starting out. This sort of a software tool that makes it easier for people and fills that gap is going to be a significant attribute for people using such software for a myriad of different products that might be available on the market. And thank you so much for coming up with the idea, Mr. Jones. And thank you for taking us on an adventure today in the podcast that really has been great. 

How do people get in contact with you if they want to get in touch? - Yeah, I'd say head to the website, go to www.clttoolpox.com or .com.au. Just go out there and send an email to it and then we'll get back to you. Also on LinkedIn, just shoot me up an email or a message on LinkedIn, Adam Jones. And yeah, we can go from there and more than happy to speak to anyone and just have feedback more generally about what we're doing. We're early enough to actually mold our business model still about where we're going. So open ears to that. And also to suppliers as well who are looking to get their products onto a software that just basically makes it as easy as possible for their customers to design with. I appreciate those words as well, Paul, thank you. - 

No, thank you, Adam. Thanks for what you're doing. You've been a great contributor here locally. Now, it's great to see you taking up a global stage, effectively, we're trying to progress it. I don't feel so lonely anymore nor do others that are trying to push the barrow forward. But thank you so much, mate. Thanks for your time and have a great day. Thank you, Paul. That was awesome. Appreciate it.