Mass Timber Construction Podcast
Mass Timber Construction Podcast
Special Guest - Belinda Duncan and Shawn Scriven - Terraverta - South Africa - Revolutionising Home Construction for Sustainable Living with Mass Timber
Unlock the secrets of sustainable living with our special guests, Belinda Duncan, the trailblazing founder of Terraverta Habitats, and architect Sean, as they guide us through their transformative venture into the mass timber construction industry. Hear Belinda's personal journey as she built South Africa's first CLT-constructed home, facing numerous challenges along the way. Together with Sean, they share their mission to disrupt traditional building methods, emphasizing the importance of innovative timber construction for creating eco-friendly, wellness-oriented homes.
Explore the myriad benefits of mass timber in construction. Discover how it can revolutionize your home with cost-effective solutions, superior thermal efficiency, and airtight properties that promise significant energy savings. Sean delves into the emotional and health benefits of mass timber living spaces, revealing how these unique structures can enhance sleep quality, calmness, and overall productivity, contributing to better mental health and well-being.
We then transition into the exciting world of small living units crafted with Cross-Laminated Timber (CLT). Belinda shares her vision for net-zero living environments that foster a deep connection with nature, highlighting the precision and quality control achieved in a workshop setting. Learn about the challenges and triumphs of their collaborative journey, and the future of prefabricated methodologies in sustainable construction. Finally, we express our heartfelt thanks to Belinda and Sean for their invaluable insights, leaving listeners inspired and informed about the potential of mass timber in modern living.
For more information: https://www.terraverta.com/
https://www.fusearchitects.net/
Production by Deeelicious Beats
Music "Game Play" by Quality Quest
Podcast is a Mass Timber Construction Journal Production
www.masstimberconstruction.com
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. This is the moment you all have been waiting for. It's time for the global sensation, the one, the only the undisputed heavyweight podcast in the world the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. And now here's Paul Kramer, your host.
Speaker 2:Good morning, good afternoon or good evening. Wherever you are in the world today, welcome to the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. This is Paul Kramer, back with a special guest episode, my special guest. We met in probably, I'd say, october, september last year and I have been trying to convince her to come onto the podcast, and things got so intimidating for her that she had to bring a friend. So first I'm going to introduce our special guest number one, belinda. Please tell everybody who you are, what you do and how you came to be part of this industry, and then Sean will go to you as well after that.
Speaker 3:Fabulous. Thank you, paul, and thank you for that intro. Yeah, we have sort of played cat and mouse for the last eight months at least, but I'm really really pleased to be here and thank you for making the time for us as well. But, by way of intro, I'm Belinda Duncan and I'm the owner and founder of Terraverta Habitats in South Africa, primarily based sort of in the garden route in South Africa if you're familiar with that sort of area Western Cape and then the garden route and we've sort of founded in 2022. I am sort of in the key leads design, strategistist, innovation, lead inside the business. But, as you just mentioned, sean's with me in this, as are a few others, and so basically that's who I am. I come from sort of a design strategy background inside business as well as now expanding into the mass timber world.
Speaker 2:And what was the thing that captivated you about mass timber? It's interesting to hear what different people's perspectives are, my own included, but what was the thing that got you? What's the hook that got you into mass timber?
Speaker 3:It's a little bit of a long, convoluted story but, to cut to the chase, I bought a piece of land along the garden route some years ago so it's 2013, I think and with every intent of building something quite different and in in harmony with the piece of land aboard. It's a beautiful piece under real ancient milkwood and yellowwood trees, and the requirement inside that estate was to build in timber, but the only timber build is the traditional stick frame or log cabin kind of reference and I just didn't resonate. So I thought there had to be something different and we had to build in a quicker and more efficient way somehow. And I'd come back off a master's in design strategy and I thought we just don't have something here that is a key element missing. And as it evolved, I eventually found mass timber in terms of CLT and was hell-bent in doing that, which I was steered off path by numerous people actually saying it just isn't worth it, it won't work, it's too expensive. But I tend to be a little bit bullish in this kind of work and I was determined.
Speaker 3:Lo and behold, five years later, I did build the first three-bed purely CLT-constructed home in South Africa and I absolutely love it. So from that, with people staying in it as an Airbnb or just visiting it. It grew so it became a turnkey business just by chance. And behind that is my passion just to change the built environment and to reframe what we think and how we think about buildings. And even more so, there's a passion about what timber does in terms of harmony and living spaces, wellness, to the environment, sustainability. The whole works and so that's grown. We've done a few houses now and we're into another section of the business in terms of smaller homes and cabins. But it's just pure passion and a way to try and interrogate and sort of disrupt the built environment.
Speaker 2:Sounds a lot like the rest of us, that when somebody tells you you can't do it, you'd want to prove them wrong with mass timber. That's what it sounds like for you.
Speaker 4:I like that yes.
Speaker 2:Well, we have another guest with us, and, sean, would you like to introduce yourself and tell our listeners who you are and how you're connected to Belinda in this venture?
Speaker 4:Thank you, paul. I'm an architect. I've been practicing for just over 26 years from a very much commercial-driven background, not so much residential Not that that's an issue, as you know, but yes. So I connected with Belinda about a year and a half, two years ago, helping out on one of the projects that is on site at the moment, and the relationship really grew from there, I think stemming from a mutual passion to disrupt but also a keen interest that I've always had in timber construction. And we spoke earlier and we said I think you gave two scenarios of how you get involved.
Speaker 4:I think mine's slightly convoluted, maybe a bit of both. It's one I sort of wanted to force my way into being involved, but, as you know, you know you sort of sometimes just looking for the right client and I think, in a way, I've found the right client in Belinda for opportunity to get involved. And once we got that opportunity, it was really a boots and all we got in, we embraced it and I think that's where we are today and that's developing as we speak, and I love the dynamic thereof. You know, I don't think construction, or design for that matter, is a stagnant thing and it's really, I think, from where we started, or let's call it two years ago, to where we are today.
Speaker 2:We've made incredible leaps and yeah, that's where we are, and as an architect in the commercial world, I'm not sure about the contracting, but here in Australia we have a lot of faith in the design team, the principal, the architect, to get the detailed design up to sort of 35% to 60%, depending on where the contract leads it, and then we novate everything across to the builder and then essentially, the architect loses the capacity to be able to influence the commercial project. Is it the same in South Africa?
Speaker 4:I think to a certain extent it is, Although I think we still tend to well, on my side, our practice, we tend to want to detail right up to the end and again, you know sort of no, you can't be involved. Yes, we can and we will. You know, it is, after all, a built product and we would like to see it through and we really take pride in what we do. And I think that's again one of the and maybe I'm jumping the gun, I'm sorry about that, but one of my passions about Mesh Number. You know the fact that you don't leave things for coincidence on site or to a contracting team. You know words like precision jump to mind and precision gets followed through in documentation, design, design, development and so on. And really having the opportunity to detail a building to the extent where you give a full set of drawings even before construct starts.
Speaker 2:And that's just by means of the nature of clt, I think yeah, and I think that's where I was heading was there's a different level of control over the projects with the involvement for all parties.
Speaker 2:There isn't necessarily always the capacity, I guess, for um more residential type, single detached dwelling projects, to give that away, to pass that off, which means that you have control to a point that you get the superstructure correct and then you have full final frozen drawings, as you said, and they go off to the manufacturer. But even then there's still challenges with oh, did we actually detail that connection correctly? Did we get the panels cut the way we needed them to? And so there's this requirement to, I guess, detail to the very nth degree but also then triage the problems if there's something that happens on site and you've got to take responsibility for the end to end, which is very different to the commercial world. And so my question was you know what is the difference if you're coming from a commercial architectural practice into working with Belinda? What's the significant difference? Or is there a freedom or is there a restriction?
Speaker 4:No, I think it's absolutely that it's possibly a freedom for being able to detail to the end, which you don't always have been. You're not afforded that in a commercial project. A commercial project is so fast-paced the contractor has already done most of the superstructure and you're still busy sorting out waterproofing details or whatever it might be, and so you're always in a catch-up scenario, whereas what we found with working with CRT it's really reversed you need to solve a lot of it before you can approve a cutting schedule and before you can go to site, and that, to me, is incredible. The other thing that I was just thinking while you were talking is and that's maybe the triage of problems or problem solving as they go along.
Speaker 4:I'm a firm believer that you also need to learn as you go along. You need to learn from every project. So it is always good to do a bit of a post-mortem, and and maybe in the ideal world you want to do that on every project and you know you almost want to spend days on a post-mortem. We don't have that luxury, but as we go along, you know to sort of take notes of some of the challenges and make sure that you either the decision-taking process is different going forward, or you resolve that problem in a different way in a different way.
Speaker 2:And Belinda, the very first project you did. How difficult was it to do it? Or was it easy? Give the listeners a sense of, I guess, the entrepreneurship you've had to have to get the first project across the line. And then how does that, the lessons from that, how do they translate into the work that you and Sean are doing now?
Speaker 3:That's a great question actually. So I think there are two parts to that. I think, in blazing the trail in terms of creativity, building the first CLT full home I mean, obviously there were components of it in South Africa already, whether it was an add-on or a modular home that was a challenge in itself, getting people to actually believe in the product and buy into the project. So getting an installation team and getting an architect at that point it wasn't shown and the engineer, everybody had to sort of be led by me, who knew nothing in terms of the industry but had 100% blind belief that this is it and this was the way we were going. So I had to, in the beginning, drag them along, including banks and, you know, insurance companies, the whole work. So this was the first.
Speaker 3:So that was hard work. That that really, that really created a few stumbling blocks. But once we were going, I think the ease of how this works in terms of mechanics and installation times and the beauty of it and the silence of it and the incredible soft impact it has on everybody around it that was, that was simple, that was easy. That was that the conversion rate was a hundred percent. Everybody started seeing the positives in it over the negatives and the beauty of the product just shone. So I think that the actual build process to me was blissful. It was easy, it was quick. I wouldn't say it was without its niggles and faults and and hurdles. We were learning as we're going and nobody had done this. So we certainly had a few head-scratching moments, we certainly had some deviations of what we actually had intended, but the final product was on point and, just to sort of speak to what Sean was saying, all the preliminary work and the hard blood, sweat and tears literally manifested itself in exactly what I'd envisaged. So what I thought I was going to get, I did get, and in its entirety and even more so, it delivered over and above.
Speaker 3:So I think it's definitely that first project was, it was twofold, and since then I found the whole system much more fluid and we understand it now. I mean, we don't understand everything. We lean on industry leaders like you guys, and it's such a lovely um, it's such a lovely environment to work in, because the building industry is a hard, brutal. I mean, as we know, it's a hard, brutal industry, but this particular framework I think is is incredible one. There's a huge learning to be had out of it but two.
Speaker 3:We're breaking ground every day, so the projects that have lent off my initial home have been incredibly, I think, giving in terms of give back to us in learning. We've had clients from the UK that built with us and there were tough moments. There were proper tough moments, for the expectations on both sides were quite different, but the product they got is what made them want it in the first place, and now, with the one we're doing now, we see it manifesting itself into this home of a piece of paper, exactly how we expected as well, and we do hope it goes to somebody that loves what we do as much as we do.
Speaker 2:We first did residential buildings in Australia when we set up the X-Lam plant in New Zealand and Australia, and the costs to buy solid CLT walls as opposed to timber framing, you know the floor systems, then a roofing system, etc. Was quite a lot more than the superstructure using a framed house. When you have conversations and please don't disclose any figures but when you have conversations about the type of design, do you do sort of value engineering while you're designing and does the client get involved in that, so that you sort of value engineering while you're designing and does the client get involved in that, so that you sort of meet expectations not only from a design perspective but maybe a budget perspective as well.
Speaker 3:We do, paul, I think, just to maybe change a little bit of tech on that one as well. It is an interesting conversation to have because when it comes down to the nuts and bolts and people start looking at the economics of building with these beautiful panels, it's often put to us they're not cheap, thinking the timber house is going to be, or wood house is going to be, cheaper than a brick or some other form. And the answer to that in in our terms, we do have these discussions from from the outset no, it's. It's not a cheap product, but the product itself and the way we design.
Speaker 3:And if we design with our pillars intact and I can speak to those um, if we design with our ethos, you, the longevity of the savings is what counts, um, so the it's the word cheap, I think is, is is an awful word to use for this. It's a different way of building and the efficiencies count and the wellness counts and the impact counts. So we have those conversations from the outset and we don't give them a blanket square foot or square meterage cost. I think every client is different, every project is different, but we really do try and incorporate our expertise inside that costing. So the outcome. You're not feeling like you're constantly finding more to do what you thought you were going to do. You know what you're in for and the long-term, the long-term vision and is this the long-term vision is that you're actually going to save plus live in something that's completely different and has afforded you the ability to actually manage and plan financial contributions to that project and to the outcome of it.
Speaker 2:And Sean, when it comes to design, mass timber has limitations. There are panel thicknesses you need to take into consideration, there's the building envelope, there's the various build-ups of, you know, cladding etc on the outside, which is a little bit different to traditional materials, and then you have acoustics and interior fit out and and design, etc. What are the important considerations for you in working with Belinda and the team and trying to create these places that are supportive of what the clients are looking for.
Speaker 4:I'm going to answer it sort of in a roundabout way and first I'm just going to talk a bit to what you've asked, belinda, in terms of cost and our experience of cost. So I think there's always a direct comparison between a brick and mortar bowl versus whatever else technology you want to apply. We find that you need to convince a client of alternative material. But also, when it comes to cost, it's not actually just the physical cost of the material, there's operational cost afterwards and people always think about that. And I find that we spend more time educating people about the energy consumption of a building afterwards, post-build. And I think one of the incredible advantages of building with CRT or with this method is that you get it very close to an airtight unit. The airtight, obvious tightness obviously helps with the thermal interaction with the surrounds and how this building lives and the energy usage at the end of the day. So, having said that, I think the build-up of materials or various components within a system or contribute, and if you start understanding, you know what cladding might do, or adding cladding or thickness of cladding versus the cavity, you know, versus the CRT panel the advantage of that and what that does in the overall way that a building reacts to its environment.
Speaker 4:Suddenly you start looking at it completely different. You know you're almost looking at it completely different. You know you're almost looking at it from the outside, going in as opposed to and maybe I'm wrong but traditionally sort of inside out. You know, on a conventional brick and mortar board, because that's really the way you think. You know, if we plaster and we paint and we make it nice on the inside, you know it's all good and it will react firmly well, which it doesn't. We know that. So there's a mindset that you need to get around. There's definitely a detailing mindset and I think once you sort of work through a couple of these details and you've translated that into a language, and you've translated it into a language which you can convey to somebody in terms of brands and sense, then suddenly it becomes a media and the cost explanation or cost discussion becomes a lot easier.
Speaker 2:And I really appreciate the way that you've approached that, because such an encapsulated concept of how do we get the efficiencies out of the material type, how do we then create the building environment internal and the envelope and the structure itself to perform at optimal level? That then provides this operational performance, which is different to traditional building. And then what does that do to translate to effectively the wallet of the people living there, because it can have a significant influence. And then, belinda, I don't know how you do it, but how do we quantify the health benefits of living in these places, the serenity of it, the calmness of being in these places? And you know there's a number of projects.
Speaker 2:I've been involved with one here in Australia and there's one, actually, that just I promoted on social media recently. One is a mental health care facility in California using mass timber and it is having significant impact on the people that are outpatients visiting this place, the very first certified mass timber building in mental age care. Mental health age care has been found to be significantly supporting the residents that live within that facility. You know, you've expressed it here today, and I don't know either Sean as an architect or Belinda as the person that's putting all this together? How do we quantify that, bottle it and give it to people so they understand?
Speaker 3:Gosh, if we could do that, I'd love the magic bottle to do that, it to people so they understand gosh, um, if we could do that, I'd love the, I'd love the magic bottle to dish out. I'm so passionate behind that particular part piece inside mass timber, and it comes out of the studies that I embarked on, but it also comes out of just living it and feeling it, and I can speak for hours on this, really, but I tend to go off piece because I really want to impart on people the benefits intrinsically, as well as, obviously, on the environment and sustainability. But not only personally have I experienced, and anybody that stayed in the house that we've built has automatically said they sleep better, they calm us. It's sort of you come to a center, you balance, you're also living that inside-outside dream, so you're inviting nature in as well as being embedded and cocooned in nature itself, obviously being a natural raw product with minimal intervention from the human side or sort of the chemical side and the built environment side. And that is the smallest particle, I think, behind that, the science in terms of mental health and, as you've just mentioned, and actually proper physical health and recovery, but also into the learning dimension in terms of concentration spans and in the workplace where it becomes it sort of turns into sort of productivity and the happiness factor and the calm and the centered factor. In the workplace where it becomes it sort of turns into sort of productivity and you know the happiness factor and the calm and the centered factor that actually knits a much better environment to get in sort of the humanity cycle, and there is a huge amount of stats and proof behind it, and I think there's even a medical center in either Dubai or Doha that I did some research on. That has an equally beneficial outcome.
Speaker 3:So to quantify it, I think it's almost impossible.
Speaker 3:But to speak it and live it and breathe it and then have people feel it is key, and I think we've got to work on the language you use around mass timber and what it does, and find ways of leading towards, as you said, that mental health institution and the outcomes of that.
Speaker 3:But I think, as a key driver inside our business, that's something we really really do use and we do try to speak of, often in a lot, and try and help people understand that what we've, what we've done, is, um, a human race, I guess, is lived inside containers that aren't in any way natural. They're sort of interventions and we have other ways and other means to do things now and we should embark on that and I think it's a mindset, but it's also intuitively, I think, where a lot of us are going and understanding that there is benefit in sitting in nature and the benefit is is massive. It leads into every component of our working, living, daily, learning, lives. So I think it's not quantifiable, but it's the passion behind it and how we impart that and how we educate people further down the line and perhaps it's the experience. So the more people we get through these buildings, the more people we can show, perhaps results and effects. I think that's the language we need to use.
Speaker 4:But add to that, the key there is to experience it. You need to experience the space. You need to experience the space. You need to experience the material. We often say you need to touch it, smell it, feel it to really appreciate it. And it almost feels like you want to go and build 10 little blocks or 10 little units and stick them throughout the city so that people can use them, feel them, spend time in them. It's part of a advertising campaign, so that you advertise what this product can do mentally, but also physically Experience it.
Speaker 2:All I can say is you need to experience it I thought you were going to say eat it as one of the options.
Speaker 4:You have to do as well some, some people do, they lick it so let's go to what's currently happening.
Speaker 2:What's the stable of um projects, sean, you might want to talk about what's in design, what might be finalized, or what's the stable of um projects, sean, you might want to talk about what's in design, what might be finalized, or what's in concept. What's what's coming up for the two of you?
Speaker 4:um, I'm gonna give a bit of a lead and I think belinda can, um, you know, sort of follow through on it. Uh, we, we are looking at a whole series of of cabins which are hugely exciting. The world is moving towards smaller living, you know, for all the obvious reasons the footprint, but also your cost of living and I think we're sort of working on developing a series of these little sort of living units. I don't want to call them pods because that's not what they are, they're cabins and it's really exciting. And you know, when we started off, we spoke about precision and we spoke about some of the advantage of CLT and I think really what we are sort of working with is one of those advantages of being able to cut to a precise dimension, manufacture in a workshop under controlled conditions. So the product that goes out of the workshop is really of top quality and a contained unit that can be placed almost anywhere in South Africa and react to its environment in a positive manner.
Speaker 2:And Belinda. Where did the inspiration for these not pods, but cabins come from?
Speaker 3:The not pods. I think it's born out of the same stable as let's do things differently. There are many options available, born out of the same stable as let's let's do things differently there, there, many of there. There many um options available and obviously we we're not we're not breaking ground in terms of small home living or any small units. I think we just want to make a footprint in terms of clt and what we can offer and but we I mean terra virta I've got a great team surrounding me now and we all as equally passion impassioned about it.
Speaker 3:The homes are one thing. We we definitely want to do more homes and find people to build for, but also build for ourselves and move, move that forward. We have, in our big vision, goggles really wanting to do an estate and we have some opportunity out there in terms of creating almost a net zero environment, which you know, stepping beyond just co2 neutral into something quite special and spectacular. So we're looking at all opportunities. I'd sean spoken to this as well, but we'd love to enter into more health and also learning environments.
Speaker 3:I think there's there's opportunity here, especially in South Africa.
Speaker 3:Smaller homes are just a key piece in all of this and I think it's attainable to a lot more people and it provides opportunity of escapes and breakaways and land usage where maybe you're not getting an income off that piece of land but could add to your pocket. So there's a huge range of possibility. But there's also a lot of opportunity out there for both clients and us alike. But I think under Terra Virtus banner we just really want to keep that whole habitat everything is connected slogan. So connect with nature. We are part of nature and create that habitat environment. It's not just another block on a building, it's not another small home. It's something quite unique and different in the way we have a language within with the surrounds and with the people that inhabit those surrounds and try to build on that everything is connected and keep that like securely wrapped under the sort of the green earth terra virta habitat and if you could have your time over again and go back to the start, what would be the thing that you tell yourself?
Speaker 2:Belinda, that is an imperative to make the journey easier for you oh, wow, that's a question you know, paul, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I think that's such a tough question. I think, to make it easier, I wish I'd perhaps embedded myself in the actual factory stage of it to understand CLT, before pressing the button, because I might have been able to add into the architectural framework, as we all learned, but you know other than that, I think the only because I might have been able to add into the architectural framework, as we all learned, but you know other than that, I think the only change I'd like is to have maybe had more people along the journey with me that had a bit more knowledge, because it was. It was a tough learning curve, but I think I've been really, really blessed with the people that have bought into this and we're growing and I think the excitement in this is that it is starting to look like something in South Africa. We're seeing projects pop up not just through us but throughout the country, which is super exciting. It means the buy-in is there, the growth factor is there, the possibilities are there and the opportunities are there for all of us.
Speaker 3:And if I can lean on my experience now and aid that, that's fantastic. And if I can draw from the people that surround you, know internationally as well, and build a better mass timber, constructive units in South Africa and challenge that environment. I think whatever lessons I've learned, they're part of this journey forward. So, yeah, I don't think I've changed that much.
Speaker 2:I'm pleased to hear that because I think the collaboration is the key right. It's the utility of, and the difference of, what we're doing, using prefabricated methodologies to create these environmentally sustainable panels and systems that then turned into a building with utility and purpose, place and space and form. And to hear you say that you know you probably wouldn't change too much means that what's required for listeners is you have to go through the journey, you have to undertake that process to really fully understand, and I do appreciate the manufacturing element too. Understand and I do appreciate the manufacturing element too. That is a common thing, and many manufacturers are now offering tours to show how the panels are created, but that doesn't mean that you know.
Speaker 2:You, belinda, is sitting next to the person that's organizing the machinery and using the computer aided machine uh, shop drawings to run the CNC. You know if you would probably have the skill to do that, not many people would want to get involved, but you seem to have a very holistic requirement to understand which is which is brilliant. So I would encourage others to do as you have done. And, sean, same question, if you could, could go back. What's the sort of one thing that you would hope to tell yourself at the start that you would support your journey um, I also don't think there's there's one thing?
Speaker 4:um. Well, I can't think of one thing. Um, it's a process and um one needs to explore. As you know a design process goes, you know you need to explore. Um it's taking two steps forward and, and sometimes you need to take two steps backwards, um, it's a continuous question process, question answer process, um, and that's how you make decisions and that's how you move forward. So the experience has been great, um, the learning curve has been phenomenal and no, I wouldn't change anything.
Speaker 2:Ah, brilliant, all right, we have run out of time, but to finish off, belinda, give the business a plug. Sean, give the business a plug, or tell us what to do to engage with you, and maybe we'll start with you, belinda, with the business side, and then, sean, you might want to tell us how people who are thinking about building might start to get their imagination in the right mindset for a project. That might be a good way to go over to you, belinda.
Speaker 3:Thank you, paul. And yeah, in terms of a, I think I just want to reiterate that, so you know this is really born out of a passion on disrupting how we build and the built environment itself. It doesn't mean we I'm going to reiterate that, so you know this is really born out of a passion on disrupting how we build and the built environment itself. It doesn't mean I'm going to plant just homes or cabins. It's, I think we see the future in changing how we live, work, play and learn.
Speaker 3:And at Terraverta we really do embody, for very strategic design elements and circularity, inclusivity. We embody biophilic design, which I think for our listeners it's incorporating nature inside and out, and then, of course, sustainability. So for us it's a passion about changing the way we want to think, about learning and living in in such environments and in our, in our and you know, join us on a journey and create something special and new and something that's sort of future thinking, preserve the future, and something that you can let your wildest dreams free on. It's really a creative product and we'd like to step forward in different directions in terms of this, and I think we've got a great team behind us and some really, really fantastic opportunities, so we'd like to share those.
Speaker 2:And what's the website? Please Belinda.
Speaker 3:So it's terravertacom, so T-E-R-R-A and then V-E-R-T-Acom. We're just loading new stuff onto it now with our new projects and our new offerings. So that's a work in progress a little, but it's moving along. It's lovely. So, yeah, do contact us there, and Sean and I would be happy to reach out and have conversations and we're looking forward to partnering with other people in the industry as well and trying to get some real good leverage in the mass timber world. So, whether you're a possible client or a partner in this game, I would really love to chat and sean.
Speaker 2:What are the key things for someone who's thinking about going down this pathway? What's the mindset they need? What's different about clients that do journey with you and Valinda versus those that don't?
Speaker 4:I think it is the client that questions and the client that's not satisfied with just what is the norm and the standard, and I really hope that in the future this becomes a norm and a standard. I think we've got a long way to go, but, yes, question every part of the process and those make the good clients. They make you think and, as a designer, they push you or help you push yourself to limits, and I think that's what it boils down to.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant and a great way to end. Uh, thank you so much for both of you for being on the podcast. Belinda, thank you again for coming on after the please to do so. Uh, it's been a joy to have you on, sean, thank you for your time and, uh, we will catch up with you soon. I'll put all the details for your company in the show notes, so if anyone wants to get in contact with you, the website will be available to everybody and this episode will be going live very, very soon. Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:Paul, thank you very much. Thank you for your time. It's really been an honor to be here. Thank you.