Mass Timber Construction Podcast
Mass Timber Construction Podcast
Special Guest - Mario Savva- Mass Timber Integrator
What does it take to evolve from a general carpentry business to a leader in mass timber construction? Join us as we chat with Mario Savva, Managing Director of Savcon, who shares the company's transformation story and their trailblazing role in the largest mass timber project by volume in the Southern Hemisphere. From overcoming intricate connection systems and logistical nightmares during COVID-19 to honouring the essential role of the late Gary Caulfield, Mario gives us an inside look at the complexities and triumphs of their groundbreaking work at Nanyang Technical University.
But that's just the beginning. Discover how Savcon's strategic shift to an integrator model has revolutionised their approach, enhancing design and cost efficiency with an expanded team that includes an in-house engineer. Listen in as we explore successful case studies like the Australian Manufacturing Research Facility and the Stromlo Aquatic Centre, highlighting the aesthetic and environmental benefits of mass timber. We also tackle current industry challenges, offering a comprehensive perspective on what it takes to excel in this innovative sector. Don’t miss this insightful episode packed with inspiration and actionable strategies from one of the industry's pioneers.
Ladies and gentlemen, we are live. This is the moment you all have been waiting for. It's time for the global sensation, the one, the only the undisputed heavyweight podcast in the world the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. And now here's Paul Kramer, your host.
Speaker 2:Good morning, good afternoon or good evening. Wherever you are in the world today, Welcome to the Mass Timber Construction Podcast. Thank you, Bruce Buffer, the veteran voice of the Octagon, for doing the introduction, and another man who probably needs Bruce Buffer's voice to do an introduction to him is long-time serving servant of Mass Timber in Australia, who's hosting an amazing company in Sydney that's doing incredible things. Mario, please give people a bit of a background. Introduce yourself first and then give them a bit of a background about who you are and what you do.
Speaker 3:Hello everyone. Yeah, my name's Mario Sabu. I'm the managing director of a carpentry company based in Sydney called Savcon. We are predominantly a commercial construction company, a carpentry company, I should say that's sort of evolved into this mass timber space and progressively gone from there since I'm not sure how many years now probably going on seven years and absolutely love it, enjoy it.
Speaker 2:And mass timber. How did you get from carpentry general, I would presume, to mass timber? What was the nexus, what was the crossover?
Speaker 3:for you, to be honest, for us, it was a I'd probably call it an evolution of carpentry for us. Looking at what we did. We're in the commercial space. We only did large timber projects all around Australia and then had an opportunity of a mass timber project with glulam beams and we, in all honesty, didn't know too much about it. That's the honest truth and it was just exciting and we thought you know, honesty didn't know too much about it. That's the honest truth and it was just exciting and we thought you know what, let's have a crack. And really we did throw ourselves into it. There's no doubt about it. But I suppose that's the only way of really you know getting involved into something new you got to.
Speaker 2:And we know that you had a hand in supporting the largest volume of mass timber in a project in the Southern Hemisphere in Singapore. Tell us a little bit about the project and how you got involved and you know what were some of the issues or complexities or things that you would take away from that particular project that you think maybe the listeners want to know about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I probably want to firstly acknowledge the late, great Gary Caulfield for that one. He was someone who headhunted our company for that project and I want to really thank him for that. So, yeah, we got approached for that project in Singapore and it was pre-COVID. So, yeah, we got approached for that project in Singapore and it was pre-COVID. So back in the time when you could freely fly between countries and it was so exciting I mean, thinking about a company from Sydney, do you want to have a look at a job in Singapore? I mean, yeah, of course. So we basically put the word out to the guys. The team and a lot of guys put their hands up, that's for sure. That was in February, march 2020.
Speaker 3:And then, obviously, it went pear-shaped. You know, mid-march, I think, covid really kicked in with all the restrictions and then we kept fighting for it, and what I mean by fighting for it is really pushing for how to get approval into the country, because it was just an exciting job to be a part of Biggest mass timber by volume, as you said. So, yeah, that was our involvement. We ended up sending a five-man team over there and they assisted with the process of leading sort of how would you call it? Sectors of the building or separable portions of the building? With our experience, and had some local contractors working around us and assisting that it was fantastic, unbelievable, unbelievable.
Speaker 2:And the project's, the NTU, nanyang Technical University, and what was really interesting was it was a Sugaroo barn design which had similar dimension columns for beam systems. So it's very simplistic Japanese style building and one of the challenges I know you guys had was you had to put a mock-up together. But you also had internal connection systems. How difficult were those connectors from the reports from the team on site to get those right in the big VHAR beams and column system that you had?
Speaker 3:Oh, I mean the job itself was a challenge. I mean they were difficult. But, like everything, once you do a couple of difficult scenarios and and there's a lot of it there's a lot of repetition on this job you do start finding some simplistic ways of installing and creating some smarts to it. Um, it'd be like the first time we ever tried them again, to be honest. Yeah, it was. It was like what is this, what is this? This connection detail? And if you ask our team members now, we are 100% all for it. So it's just one of those processes. You just struggle with technicalities initially, but then you find you have to, when something is so repetitious, you have to find a smart way of doing it. So one of the hardest parts of that job was Singapore, with monsoonal, or what do you call it. One of the hardest parts of that job was, well, singapore with, you know, monsoonal, or what do you call it.
Speaker 3:You know a lot of heavy rain. No doubt that makes it quite difficult and the logistics of that project was really difficult because of the back on the COVID scenario the preloading of the materials. Because the materials kept coming to site because the factories in Europe didn't stop, they got preloaded into this phenomenally massive factory of the materials. Because the materials kept coming to site because the factories in Europe didn't stop, they got preloaded into this phenomenally massive factory. That's where they got wrapped and protected and got stored there and then moving it to site. So that was a major challenge for everyone involved, you know, for the whole entire team. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And the team worked with Dave Kingham on the job and uh and gary the late gary, as you mentioned before and tiong seng, who's the parent company of the venture. Uh, it was their first foray into mass timber and they're traditionally a steel construction company. Did the labor source sort of translate from steel company across to doing timber? And I don't know if you have any comment on that, but was that something that you guys had to get involved in as carpenters and train them?
Speaker 3:No, Well, they had a lot of local guys that were relatively knowledgeable. There were some guys that were pretty good, in all fairness right. So you had, as you mentioned, david Kingham, who's a project manager for Savicon now as well. Mind you, he's a really smart, technical-minded guy and I think without him on that job it wouldn't have been as successful as what it was. He was certainly a driving factor to that, but it was. They did help and it was actually Steel Tech. So you mentioned is it Pyeong?
Speaker 2:Pyeong Seng, the parent company Steel Tech yeah.
Speaker 3:Cideri, yeah, steel Tech was actually the ones that we were dealing with and they were sort of the driving force or the main principal contractor for us. But you know they ended up getting the right guys and it just comes back to the fact that the job is so big and there are so many. Back on that word I said before you know consistent, repetitious connections, that you know you do start picking it up, but you've got to have the right guys to obviously steer the ship, no doubt. But then the other team leaders were able to start picking up the pieces too, so so that was really good.
Speaker 2:And when you were in Singapore yourself, did you go down to Clark Quay and did you go and enjoy some satay and some beverages?
Speaker 3:I did. I was only there for two nights and that was in the late, early March I think it was. So we were, yeah, literally obviously before shut, two weeks before shutdown, and we were able to really enjoy it. I was actually quite disappointed because you know you're thinking to yourself you're getting a job in singapore, you're gonna have guys over there starting installing this thing. Oh, that's awesome, I'll go over there mid, mid, mid project, go see the job. But obviously not to be so um, I haven't seen the job, like myself since, um, but I would love to see it.
Speaker 3:But look, overall a success for everyone, I believe, and an experience that we certainly have taken a lot out of A lot to do with working internationally. That's a big factor as well. I mean, look, Mass Timber, is Mass Timber, right? So it doesn't matter if it's in a company A or country A or country B, but learning about the smarts of that, and that's where Savcon's going now. So we are looking, we've been approached from multiple international projects, so we're certainly going that way. Should they come, you know, should they go any further than tender phase, we're up for it, that's for sure.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant. And how are you? I mean, obviously the NTU is a great foray. How are you anticipating to work with remote teams again in these international projects? Is there some strategy that you've got that you are able to share with us, rather than just yeah?
Speaker 3:No, that's a fair point with us, rather than just, yeah, no, that's that's a fair point. I think that the honest truth of that is is is our, our own team is stronger. So back, you know, four years ago or five years ago, we had, you know, maybe three or four or five good installers and then some you know, two, three, four semi installers. Now our team we've we've probably got about 15 guys or 16 guys. You know two, three, four semi-installers. Now our team we've probably got about 15 guys or 16 guys you know that are predominant installers. So for us to, when you mentioned that, yeah, going abroad would be a lot easier for us because we'd send a very strong team and then be able to pick up a couple of you know locals that have a bit of know-how and willing to work along with us. So that's our approach to those scenarios just the fact that we have a stronger team.
Speaker 3:Obviously, with SavCon and what we've done over the years and the evolution of the company and also the mass, the growth of mass timber in Australia, we've been fortunate to go along with the ride of that and with that that doesn't just bolster our on-site team, but it's bolstered our off-site team and pre-design management, which is where we're pushing towards now. So, moving forward with Savcon in October onwards, we are engaging with a, with an on uh in-house engineer, I should say so he's going to be part of the savcon team um where we will be doing full dnc schematic designs, um, you know, reviewing the designs to become more efficient um reduce costs of materials, if we can do that in an engineering sense. So that's where Savcon's gone, from a big four to five years to where we're going.
Speaker 2:And the approach you're taking. From listening to what you're saying about in-house D&C overseas sort of contracting, in-house DNC overseas sort of contracting, it speaks volumes about you progressing from, you know, carpentry firm when you first started out to introduction to mass timber, doing a large project in another country, with interruptions that no one could have ever anticipated, and now it seems like you're moving into that integrator space. And we know, of course. You know there's a bnk structures is a sort of integrator. There's timber lab, slash swimmerton, there's an integrator. What, what's the change in the mindset for you, mario, to go? We're going to take on effectively more risk and do things differently, or does the integrator model control and contain the risk for you? I?
Speaker 3:think risk is. Risk for us is not. We don't consider it a risk. I think, fortunately for us, we have experience. So experience reduces risk. So look, I'm not by any means saying it's, it's a, it's smooth sailing you, but you do gotta, you do gotta, throw yourself right into the to the lines, then to a certain extent, and and and have a go at it. So, with our experience of of um like rowan jones, david kingham, um, our operations manager, lindsay may, and um and our engineer that we're bringing on board, we have the experience to de-risk the situation.
Speaker 3:So to the comment about integrating yeah, it's certainly where we want to be. I mean, the great example that we use, our analogy, I should suggest, is a builder gets a contract and they'll give it to a facade contractor as an example, and they'll take the facade contractor through the whole journey of designing the facade. And then a facade contractor as an example, and they'll they'll take the facade contractor through the whole journey of designing the facade and then the facade contractor does the facade. The builder doesn't. Then go and get the silicon from somewhere, go get the gaskets from somewhere else, go get the glass, the aluminium and bring it all together and then give it to another guy and say, mate, can you install it right? Right, you, just, you basically put the, put your belief and trust in a company that is good at what they do and that's what they do for a living and deliver the project. Now we've we've actually had a lot of success currently. Right now We've just delivered AMRF, the building over there at near Badgerys Creek Australian Manufacturing Research Facility and that was a raging success for us on a full DNC supply and install. That's gone really well.
Speaker 3:And a great example is I won't name the builder in this respect, but in relation to a project that we're on now in Sydney where we did the install of these large timber buildings, two-story walk-ups. It's a commercial building. Now in that first building there's three buildings in total the first one, the builder procured the project of the materials and we did the install Then went to the second one and they said, mate, we don't want nothing to do with this ever again. We prefer to give you the entire package, supply and install, and it's been an absolute success because the simple fact is we know what we're talking about. We understand where we can be smarter about the process, be smarter about the install, assist with the program and manage the procurement of the materials. Now you take all those aspects and say to a builder who's never done it before, I mean, they know how to build, but when you start getting to the absolute detail of mass timber, why would you want to flood yourself with that type of information?
Speaker 3:That's where the risk is not what we do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're essentially distributing the risk in your camp and supporting the primary contractor, the main general contractor for people in the US, or the principal builder, head contract builder here, and you're effectively working in tandem with them. And actually probably about 2017, there's a company in Australia called Form 700. And they do concrete assemblies, they do concrete systems, and I always thought if someone could take on exactly the same venture as them, but in mass timber, you would certainly be the pinnacle supplier, because essentially they're saying you know, deliver me this building, the superstructure and.
Speaker 2:I'll fit it out and bring in wet trades and coordinate it, which is what builders do now, and I think I hear semblances of that strategy coming through from what you're talking about. So it's a very different way of looking at the the other thing too, Paul.
Speaker 3:It's also one thing with timber you've got to remember there are a lot of old heads in the building industry that are very used to you know your conventional concrete steel building up, you know bringing up your lift shafts and all that sort of stuff, and I get that and I respect that. Now you tell that old folk or the old head to go build out a timber. Now it's not that they disrespect the timber, but it may have been very problematic for them because they don't have experience with that. So then they do the job, they deliver it eventually. Of course they do right, and some you know one way or another they'll deliver it and then they won't talk good about it because they're not used to it and they've had so many problems with it.
Speaker 3:But is it a problematic job? Not really. It's problematic because of the sequencing of the installation or the procurement or whatever. So this is where we, you know. Then it creates a bad stigma unnecessarily to the mass timber industry. Now it could have even been a scenario that the mass timber building it wasn't really the smart solution for that building, but the client or the architect or the engineer were really trying to push it for their own agendas, and that's the other thing that we're trying to instruct clients and QSs at the moment. It's not every building is a mass timber building. If the grids don't work, or fire ratings or whatever the whatever the parameters are, don't do it, or or step back, redesign your layouts and then re-evaluate the process, rather than trying to push something that's unnecessarily and that's where the stigma will come for the wrong reasons yeah, and I think the point around the old school builder who's used to doing cubic metre rates for concrete, and then you connect it to QS and the traditional quantity surveying role.
Speaker 2:I don't know you and I have spoken about this privately and that is that in the guide for the standard measurement for QSs, the method for the standard measurement for qs's, um, the method for measurement, the asmm, the, the, the, there's a page in there for concrete, there's a page in there for steel work, there's a page in there for roofing and facades and everything that you can think of. It's missing the page for mass timber, where it provides direction to the QSs to quantify and qualify and put quantum around exactly the material. And, of course, it's geared towards 150 years of concrete and steel construction, as opposed to the relatively new let's call it 2012 in Australia, with the Forte building landing mass timber. Starting then to where we are now, we're talking just over 13 years. There has to be a change and what I hear from you is that it's not right or wrong. You can choose the right material for the right job. It's different and you're actually working as a translator between the differences of the traditional construction and the modern construction. Would that be a fair assessment?
Speaker 3:and the people that we've got in the company to look at a building and go, this is not really. You know, it's all good, we really you know we'd love to push the agenda but it's not the smart way to do it because, you know, failing when I say fail it's not like it's going to collapse or anything like that but failing to deliver the project in a timely manner and a budget that's suitable is not a good thing. And then the word gets out and then it becomes oh, that bloody building down the road and you know we don't want that. We're trying to eliminate that. So the longevity of mass timber buildings continues, for all the right reasons and just with our experience, it's all about the procurement, the craneage, the transport to site. The crane is the, the um, the transport to site, the. There's so many factors involved with mass timber because you know, with steel as an example, it's you can rig steel and you can scratch it, you can do things and it can be.
Speaker 3:It's quite robust in that respect and that's where people like us need to be involved with that whole process to make sure that we are delivering the right job and it looks amazing the way a master building does. It's so important that it gets. That delivery point starts at design. One thing we do like to incorporate is getting involved early with the design, because everyone has their own agendas or their own reasons for building a building. You've got the engineer who doesn't want it to fall down. You've got the architect who wants it to look amazing. You've got the client who doesn't want to spend money. Totally respect everyone's comment. You know everyone's their way of thinking in relation to the project. But and we're not by any means the answer either but we are a good collaborator of bringing a lot of those pieces together to get the right project and the right solution for the project.
Speaker 2:And so what's the key to success, to bringing all of those disparate parts together? Mario, how do you control to deliver?
Speaker 3:I think it really does come down to our experience. It does because we're able to tell people this is what we believe is the smartest way, and it's not just a matter of what we believe, and then you explain it and justify from experience. This is why we're doing this. This is why we strongly suggest you put down a you know a wrap over the CLT, or we strongly suggest you put sealer you know, prior to delivery on the timber from experience. And why? Because you know UV bleaching or all these types of things that are so important to the final delivery of the project. So it comes down to our experience. It really does, and I'm not by any means saying we are the final delivery of the project. So it comes down to our experience. It really does. And I'm not by any means saying we are the oracles of Mass Timber, but we do know enough and a lot more than the next person.
Speaker 2:I would have to agree with that. We can probably talk about this now because Katerra's gone. But you and I sat down one day with Nick Milestone and we had a model of Atlassian and we were looking at things like the opening in the external sort of grillage steel structure and how the internals would work and what we would do for landings and how it would go in, what would the logistics, and you spent an inordinate amount of time figuring out the minute detail. And that was three and a half years ago and I know that the result didn't end in your favor, but I can certainly talk to the process that you go through. Is that indicative of what you do on most jobs with your team?
Speaker 3:We have to. That's exactly what we do. We have to think, we have to forward, think just so many factors involved of delivery, or where do we land the material, or where do we, you know what goes up. We also in the business, we put up a 4D model that we provide to our clients as well, which basically simulates it's a full simulation of piece by piece of how we're going to install the buildings. So what that does, we're able to simulate literally the truck driving in to the scissor, going up the boom, the crane, and it just makes it so much easier for everyone to fully understand exactly how this thing is going to get built. And we don't just come up with a simulation just on a whim. We also collaborate that with our temporary propping engineer to make sure that we are going in the correct sequence, in the correct methodology. So it does you really have to forward, think the finished product and come backwards in some sense.
Speaker 2:And with the projects you've currently got. Now let's talk about the completed ones. What's been your favourite project so far and why was it your favourite?
Speaker 3:Well, look, amrf was very exciting for us because that was a complete full supply design install project. So that turned out amazing, with a lot of complexities to it, with curved beams and external beams and things that went amazing. But we have done a lot of amazing installs. One of them probably notable was Stromlo, down in ACT, stromlo Aquatic Centre. That was really exciting. That's when we really got involved with the.
Speaker 3:The craneage on that one was extremely challenging and using, you know, the correct cranes and that's when we started learning about craneage because, in honesty, when you get into mass timber, that is a major factor of mass timber cranes, massive, you know, between your cranes and your plant, ie scissors, booms and access equipment. They are some you know. Knowledge of those is, uh, is phenomenal. So I think stromlo was really exciting because there's a lot of these cantilevered beams lifting up large cassettes. So, look, we've done a lot.
Speaker 3:I'm trying to really think about which ones are really exciting. I mean, look, ntu is exciting in the sense of the international factor, but sometimes not even the bigger ones are. Just the smaller ones are quite exciting. So the one we're currently doing right now, which I mentioned earlier about the industrial office blocks, so what I was trying to get at before. These are particular large industrial estates and the offices which offset off, which is the, you know, the administration building for the industrial units are full mass timber and they look amazing. They really do look good because you've got this metal box that's 10 000 square meters or you know whatever size it is, and you've got this really nice administration mass timber building, so it looks fantastic yeah, it would have been 2018 or thereabouts, and I remember going to a builder doing the same thing, saying look, we build these massive steel structure sheds.
Speaker 2:It's not feasible to do them out of timber because the beams would be so bloody deep, you'd lose head height. But we can do the prefabricated front offices that attach to them for the administration. And sounds like you've really got that nailed now, which is great.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, the benefit of these offices is what it's also allowing for the builders to do is to really capture the carbon and the carbon credits and trying to consider where we're able to offset these construction, these buildings, where you do have a lot of concrete. You do have a lot of concrete, you do have a lot of steel. So we're able to be smart about it. And you know there's some items. There are some items you just cannot change the material component of, understandably. But when we can do it and we can be smart about it, there are a lot of opportunity for that.
Speaker 3:And not to mention the biggest thing with I think the biggest thing with mass timber. It just looks amazing. You know I'm not saying it because it's what we love doing and we're involved in it, but they really do look good. And if the architect can really consider using the mass timber in the right methodology and certainly not covering up too much of it, which sometimes does happen, you can have a beautiful building building. And biophilia is what you know, that is a big word they use on mass timber buildings, but it's true, it really is.
Speaker 2:The biophilic effect is something that's gaining a lot of traction now. There's a couple of papers out from the Build 4.0 CRC, arc, whatever it is in Melbourne out of Melbourne University, monash University and all the partners and even our Mass Timber Construction Journal research arm has issued one on the biophilic effects of timbering, in particular looking at the response from a psychological and physiological reaction to the knots in the timber. So the display of the knots and the way that the timber has that natural characteristic.
Speaker 3:So it's good to see that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's good to see it translating. And I guess there's two poles. The international standard for cross-laminated timber has a visual grade and industrial grade and the delta. The difference between the two is actually the number of frequency of knots and size of knots, and it's a very interesting dynamic. So if you want to read about that paper, head to the journal uh publication you'll be able to get that. What about current jobs that you've got now that are challenging? What's? What's the biggest challenge? On the ones that are really difficult for you and I don't mean be disrespectful to the stakeholders of the parties, but is it technical challenges or is it contracting challenges or is it people challenges? What, what would you say, are the challenges?
Speaker 3:challenges. I think. Well, a good example is a project we're doing, probably right now in Melbourne, where we're doing these large arches. It's just this. What are the challenges? I mean the size. The size is a big one. Obviously, there are a lot of scenarios with plants craniages. There are a lot of scenarios with plants craneages, but I think these are the biggest challenges for mass timber you're referencing. Yeah, I mean the biggest thing at the moment.
Speaker 3:I think this is industry-wide. It's purely based on costs at the moment and budget restraints that we are having. That are happening constantly on every project. So, whether or not it's Master Timber or any other structure, at the moment, that is a big factor and that's where we are trying to.
Speaker 3:This is our thought process now is where can we be smarter to reduce the costs? Because if this is a problem in the budget, how can we be smarter? How can we reduce the size of the materials, the thickness of the CLT, the size of the columns, the beams? Do we suggest to be smarter to the architects in their design to reduce the grid spacings? It's all about these little things that we are trying to implement into our D&C process to make sure the job does go forward rather than designing it out of budget. You know, that's where we need to be smarter, and I don't believe just when I say we. I think that's where the industry needs to be smarter and be smarter about what is suitable for a mass timber building, what size works or what grid works that's more suitable, rather than look at a conventional concrete steel building and go, oh, but now we want to build out a timber. Well, in some ways, the horse is already bolted, so we need to get up front and be smart about it prior to that design phase.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the late Gary Caulfield used to say tell people design it so it can be timber, because you can always design it in steel and concrete in an alternative option or model. Just going back to the value management and the engineering value engineering aspect of that, it sounds like with your integrator approach and your capacity for D&C and effectively, services are novated to you to some degree with the mass timber component at least. This is going to give you an opportunity to be able to create that value management to deliver on the client. Value in the end.
Speaker 3:Is that sort of what I'm hearing I understand that's exactly where we're trying to push. You know what we are trying to achieve out of this. What we also want to try and do is try and look at the forecast of what's coming up, or look at solutions of how we can look at hypothetically a two-story walk-up and come up with a typical solution that works and that's feasible and we can try and introduce this system or this particular design on a more broader basis, rather than just look at individual projects one by one. We're trying to look at this as a holistic approach for miscellaneous scenarios, ie industrial construction, affordable housing, social housing, commercial buildings. So we've got to be smarter about that's what we feel is. The way we want to approach this as an integrator is look at the forecast, not just what's in front of us right now, and get on the forefront of what Australia needs socially.
Speaker 2:Let's talk about that for a second. The social conversation, the affordable conversation they're two different conversations. We should add, affordability is related to market rates and accessibility to first home buyers, for example, and continuing to perpetuate enough housing stock that's affordable for people to be housed. And when we've got enveloped in that is this densification and urban expansion conversation, which is a topic in by itself. And then the social is really around. You know the governmental support for housing. Do you think mass timber definitely has a role in both of those camps or do you think more one than the other?
Speaker 3:I believe it does. Yeah, I think we've. We've got to have an opportunity of really proving ourselves, that's for sure. And how do we prove ourselves? And that's that's with. What we can achieve here is is design it with the engine, with the correct engineering, and certainly not over engineering, because that's one of the other risks that we do face with mass timber, with engineers as well. There's no disrespect to any engineer that's over-engineered in some cases, but putting too much risk on. So what we can achieve is de-risking that to a sensible buildability method and really prove why is it feasible? It's it's. Also, you know, we can construct a lot quicker. We can reduce the prelims, um, you know we can. We can make it aesthetically just as appealing, um, we can use sustainable products that I mean trees are plentiful at the moment, so we can certainly use it. So I do believe there is. I think we've just got to come up with that right balance. I mean, we're not in this to. We believe there is an opportunity, hence why we are doing what we're doing.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really important point and for people who are listening in markets where mass timber has yet to take a hold and they're looking for ways to capture the market, at least to start with that exemplar project. And one of the questions I commonly get is oh, do you think a builder will tell us what their books are and show us what the savings are and and let us know what the real details are and and the reality is? Unless you're in maybe the US, where information like that is probably more free and open in Australia, you won't get to that. But I do say that you just need to keep looking at the people that keep repeating the use of the material type to see that it must have some advantage. Is that a fair assessment? In your experience over the 20 years you've been here and the seven or so you've been in mass timber? It is rewarding you as a company.
Speaker 3:Certainly, I think, like you mentioned before, the proof's in the pudding, you know, it does prove itself to be to be feasible and smart and and a good solution. So, um, I mean, look, I think we've got to be honest too. Australia is very young at mass timber, you know we, we are. I mean, if you go to the europeans as an example, or or the us, the us are very, uh, stick build orientated, as we all know they love their stick build homes. You know, with the Oregon, that they've got plentiful stock of, I mean, it's been going up for so many years.
Speaker 3:And then you go to Europe and the CLT is very common over there, or more common, but no doubt, where Australia is going with the CLT and mass timber market, with the GLT, is, I think it's surpassing a lot of other countries on a pro rata rate. So, does it work? Yes, is it feasible? I believe it is, and I think we're going to make it more feasible with what we're trying to achieve here. Um, and you know, let's try, and I I think the other thing too is it's not the, we're not by any means saying this is the only solution, but it is a solution, it's another solution, is the way of putting it.
Speaker 2:So I think we need to spread our wings as an industry and allow for more options to build these items, murray that's a great place to end the podcast because we've run out of time, but just so the folks know how to get in contact with you, what's your website uh address and you know how else can they get in contact with you. Is that a form on the site or you want to give us an email address?
Speaker 3:yeah, look, it's wwwsavconcomau. Um, oh, look, when you go to the our website, there's a link for contact, which will then come back to our info page. I'd love to chat to anyone. If you'd send an email through that, then we can obviously then start talking on the phones. But we'd love to chat to people and if you've got any projects where you want even just information, I'm more than happy to chat about it.
Speaker 2:And I'll put the link to the website as well in the show notes for the episode and thank you very much, Mario, for your time. You are very generous and I do appreciate you coming on the podcast. All the best with the new Integrator Venture.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much, Paul. I really appreciate it. It was actually quite enjoyable. Thank you very much. I am pleased. No, no, it was fantastic. I wasn't sure what to expect at all, honestly, but it's been amazing. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2:No worries, thank you.